Unveiling Workplace Culture Transformation With Angela Howard
On this episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn, Kim Clark is joined by Organizational Psychologist, Angela Howard. Throughout this insightful episode, Angela and Kim delve into the realm of culture transformation while taking us on a journey to understand the intricate workings of how organizational culture shapes and molds our workplaces. Not only do they explore the connections between an organization’s stated values vs their actions, but also shed light on the challenge of how this alignment influences an organization’s communication strategies. They also break down the role of an organizational psychologist, the necessity of leadership remodeling and how communicators are the co-creators of workplace culture all while unpacking how powerful the tool of language is in shaping culture.
About The Guest:
Angela R. Howard is a former CPO/CHRO, Organizational Psychologist and the CEO of Call for Culture - an organization that applies psychology, anthropology, and sociology to the science of culture development and change. Her mission is to help transform companies into environments where employees can deploy their contributions for positive organizational outcomes and social impact. Her podcast, Social Responsibility at Work, interviews change makers who are actively creating solutions for this mission.
Find Angela Here:
About Kim:
Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.
She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.
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Transcript
Hello, hello, welcome back. I'm so pleased to be here
Kim Clark:with Angela, Howard Angela and I got connected What was it like a
Kim Clark:year or so maybe a little bit more, then we just hit it off
Kim Clark:the first time we met. We're like, there's so much synergy
Kim Clark:between our work but also our interests or passions.
Unknown:And I'm super fascinated by your path of how
Unknown:you got into diversity and equity inclusion work. So why
Unknown:don't you introduce yourself? And then I've got like, a ton of
Unknown:questions for you. Yeah. Well, Kim, thank you so much for
Unknown:having me. First of all, it was a pleasure having you on the
Unknown:podcast about my podcast. So the tables have turned, it's a
Unknown:beautiful thing to be on the other side. So thank you for
Unknown:that. Hi, everyone. My name is Angela Howard. I am an
Unknown:organizational psychologist and the CEO of a company called call
Unknown:for culture. And, you know, we focus on cultural transformation
Unknown:work. And what does that mean? Because I think we're throwing
Unknown:the word culture around a lot lately. And really, what we're
Unknown:focused on is how do you match organizations words with their
Unknown:actions, and ultimately connecting that back to their
Unknown:value system? So from a behavioral perspective, how are
Unknown:we shifting and transforming organizations? And so that's a
Unknown:little bit about me. Now, that's what makes us so awesome as
Unknown:partners, because you know, I often say, language leads to
Unknown:behavior. So I got the language, I got the communications, you've
Unknown:got the culture, you've got the behavior. I love it, just like
Unknown:two peas in a pod our work? I love that. Exactly, exactly. So
Unknown:what tell me more about what an organizational psychologist does
Unknown:and what that background is? And how do you apply that to your
Unknown:work?
Unknown:Yeah, so you know, I always like to say, you know, IO
Unknown:psychologist, so the technical term for my degree is industrial
Unknown:organizational psychology. I think it's becoming more and
Unknown:more prominent, but we do have a branding problem. So I think
Unknown:someone in communication should work on that. I'm automatically
Unknown:thinking of grease and machines. Yeah, exactly a horrible
Unknown:branding problem. But really, you know, this work started
Unknown:during the Industrial Revolution, where quite
Unknown:honestly, it was like, you know, how do we most effectively get
Unknown:the most out of people? You know? And of course, that's not
Unknown:the work we do today, it's evolved more to, you know, How
Unknown:do humans actually behave within the workplace? How do we think
Unknown:about organizations as microcosms of society, and
Unknown:almost like a study of anthropology, right. But we're
Unknown:using data and science to make decisions around around people
Unknown:within organizations, and how to not just get the most out of
Unknown:them, but also to work with the human condition and how humans
Unknown:thrive within the workplace. Okay, all right. So you were
Unknown:defining culture earlier?
Unknown:Often, there's, there's an acknowledgement of the formal
Unknown:side of culture, and then the informal side of culture. So
Unknown:when you're working with clients, and if you have any
Unknown:kind of stories, you know, talk about certain clients
Unknown:situations, how do you help them understand the influence of
Unknown:culture, especially towards diversity, equity and inclusion
Unknown:goals for an organization?
Unknown:Yeah, so I think a lot of times, we have misconceptions around
Unknown:what culture is, you know, this connects back to my academic
Unknown:background, because in IO psychology, we talk a lot about
Unknown:the organization as a system, and how the different pieces
Unknown:work together to drive behavior and action and change. And so
Unknown:when it comes to culture, you know, culture is really just a
Unknown:culmination of rituals, beliefs, habits, things that happen
Unknown:almost like below the surface, it's things you can't quite, you
Unknown:can't always name or put your finger on, but they've evolved
Unknown:over time to a point where it just is. And a lot of times this
Unknown:gets in the way of change. Because if you think about a
Unknown:founder who's built a company, and it's 100 years old, you can
Unknown:you can see how those traditions and rituals have evolved over
Unknown:time to just stick right and nobody questions them. Nobody
Unknown:says anything. But what a lot of organizations don't do is they
Unknown:don't audit that connected back to their value system. So we
Unknown:work with organizations to say, Okay, well, you have these
Unknown:beautiful core values, right? These are core values that maybe
Unknown:weren't developed even 100 years ago. They haven't changed with
Unknown:the times or even, you know, broader culture and society, so
Unknown:maybe we should relook at them. And let's really talk about what
Unknown:are the behavioral proof points
Unknown:So that tells us that we're doing these things. And I think
Unknown:a lot of organizations do a great job of putting the
Unknown:beautiful words on a webpage or a wall, but they don't actually
Unknown:define the behaviors. So I'm talking about inclusion, you're
Unknown:talking about inclusion from completely different mental
Unknown:models.
Unknown:I think that's really very important to understand is we
Unknown:may be throwing around these terms, but it doesn't mean I
Unknown:understand them. It doesn't mean that you know, I mean, the same
Unknown:thing, and it doesn't necessarily mean that I know
Unknown:what it looks like when it's happening. Another challenge
Unknown:that we have as dei communicators is that we focus
Unknown:and rely on the terms diversity, equity and inclusion as kind of
Unknown:safeguards that people get it. And people understand that's not
Unknown:the case. So I'm challenging a lot of my clients to say, what
Unknown:are the outcomes of diversity that we're seeking? What are the
Unknown:outcomes of equity and inclusion? Are we seeking so
Unknown:it's, it's more of like, use those words. And that will reach
Unknown:more people who are triggered by the words by the phrases? And
Unknown:you know, and words, dei, for sure. But sometimes, I think,
Unknown:no, I know, that us as communicators need to go below
Unknown:the surface to understand what diversity equity inclusion
Unknown:actually is, because we use these terms to kind of hide
Unknown:behind, and we don't go deeper into what they actually meet. So
Unknown:you know, people who are kind of new to D, I R feel like it's
Unknown:being pressed upon them. I think one of the things they don't
Unknown:they that we've not done a good job as di communicators, to do
Unknown:for these folks is to help them understand the DEI exists in
Unknown:culture, wherever there's people, there's a culture that's
Unknown:created, co created. And what we're seeing is kind of the
Unknown:shadow side of Dei, because it's wild, wild west, it's not
Unknown:intentional, it's not strategic, you know, it's not informed. And
Unknown:that's what all we're trying to do is to get to just like really
Unknown:honing in on a product, or on a service and truly understanding
Unknown:what it is knowing how to measure it and understanding the
Unknown:benefits of this product to our company. It's really
Unknown:understanding and getting below that surface. So we don't just
Unknown:hide, hide behind these terms. So can you talk a little bit
Unknown:more about how culture can be unbridled that it will happen
Unknown:with or without us. But as we get more intentional with CO
Unknown:creating culture, towards these outcomes, that diversity, equity
Unknown:and inclusion, are trying to drive us towards and promise us?
Unknown:Yeah, so the best analogy I can think of, for this to kind of
Unknown:lose us a little bit of storytelling here is a garden.
Unknown:And I use this often when when it comes to culture, because
Unknown:first of all, what happens when you don't tend to a garden? You
Unknown:get weeds, right? So culture is only my backyard right now.
Unknown:Exactly, say mine too. So if you're thinking about culture,
Unknown:as it's something you certainly need to curate in your mind, but
Unknown:you also have to do things. You can't just speak it and make it
Unknown:so so I can't just say you know what, this bed of flowers is
Unknown:going to be a beautiful bed of daisies, you actually have to,
Unknown:you know, dig in the dirt, you've got to pull the weeds,
Unknown:you have to constantly tend to the culture of your
Unknown:organization. And I think sometimes, as leaders we we have
Unknown:these programs, right? We develop these programs that have
Unknown:a start date and an end date. And well intended, maybe a
Unknown:little performative because culture is something you're
Unknown:being much more kind than I am
Unknown:Yes, I'm I'm slicing and dicing my words a little bit here but
Unknown:But truly, you know, you have to
Unknown:you have to nurture culture, you have to understand what the
Unknown:layout of it you know, if we think about the garden again,
Unknown:the the daisies go there, the the roses go there, we want to
Unknown:make sure the weeds are pulled, you know, the weeds are about
Unknown:the best analogy for people are leaders who are actually doing
Unknown:the opposite of what you want within your culture. So I think
Unknown:sometimes we focus so much on adding on, when in reality we
Unknown:should be deconstructing or even taking away to get to the
Unknown:culture that we're looking for. So absolutely, it's absolutely
Unknown:something you have to attend to constantly. And really, you need
Unknown:an anchor for that. And we, you know, our philosophy a call for
Unknown:culture is that your value systems translated into those
Unknown:behavioral proof points is your anchor. And that should be
Unknown:something that's baked into everything you do, how you hire,
Unknown:how you develop, how you evaluate how you hold people
Unknown:accountable.
Unknown:What your policies and processes look like how your employment
Unknown:value proposition shows up how your brand value shows up, it
Unknown:should be baked into everything that you do as an organization.
Unknown:And planting those seeds. So if we're, if we're planting seeds
Unknown:of roses, don't be really pissed off. If it comes out as roses
Unknown:when you actually want it to lips, you can't be mad at the
Unknown:seeds. It's like, what did you take a look around? If there's a
Unknown:whole bunch of apple trees? And you're like, where's the
Unknown:variety? Well, it's because we've been planting apples this
Unknown:whole time. So there's that that's where we're coming from
Unknown:and being strategic and intentional. And saying, if we
Unknown:want a wide variety of fruit in our orchard, that's what we have
Unknown:to plant and nurture to your point. So let's get into
Unknown:language. So what role does language have when it comes to
Unknown:shaping culture? And,
Unknown:you know, you know, and just communications in general?
Unknown:Yeah, so gosh, I have so many thoughts on this. The first
Unknown:thought is, you know, I like to think about language as there's,
Unknown:there's equity in it. So
Unknown:what I mean by that is, you know, when I start working with
Unknown:an organization, I spent a lot of time pretty much the first
Unknown:month learning the language of the organization, because back
Unknown:to that point around inclusion, what I'm saying and you're
Unknown:saying may be two completely different things, we may be
Unknown:using different words, but meaning the same thing as well.
Unknown:So we spent a lot of time just from our and this is where the
Unknown:anthropology comes in.
Unknown:Observing and understanding when we talk about culture, what are
Unknown:we actually talking about? You're saying one thing, but
Unknown:meaning another, or your behavior and your actions are
Unknown:mismatch? Why is that? So language, I think, has some
Unknown:brand equity in it. And it's important to sometimes meet
Unknown:people where they are. That's the first piece is, I may be
Unknown:saying one thing and using different language, we may be
Unknown:talking about the same thing. So I think language can connect
Unknown:people and create understanding. The second thing is that
Unknown:language sends a signal. So if we're using language that makes
Unknown:me feel less than celebrated, if we're using language that
Unknown:excludes people, because nobody knows what it means, that is a
Unknown:tool for exclusion within an organization. And then thirdly,
Unknown:you know, I think language is just something that again, from
Unknown:an anthro anthropology perspective, it, it's more of
Unknown:that broader sea culture, right, I think of like workplace
Unknown:culture as a lowercase c, and then you're working with the,
Unknown:the broader uppercase C language is how we
Unknown:used, you know, information and share information and tell
Unknown:people how we're feeling how we're doing. And then hearing
Unknown:things over and over, again, I think are really important for
Unknown:things to stick from a cultural perspective. So that was a lot,
Unknown:because I saw this question. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, there's
Unknown:so many implications around language. So so much. Yeah. And
Unknown:I know you're a proponent of inclusive language and gender
Unknown:neutral language, and really helping clients understand what
Unknown:is inclusive language, what is that language that we can use to
Unknown:create this culture that your values are asking you to create?
Unknown:I do a lot of we're recording this during pride month in June,
Unknown:and I do a lot of talks about pride and tell my own personal,
Unknown:you know, coming out story, etc. And one of the things that I
Unknown:always want to share is this idea of an inclusion agreement
Unknown:where in order to create a welcoming environment, one of
Unknown:the things that I sniff out as a gay woman is are you making
Unknown:jokes about the gay community? Are you you know, saying Love is
Unknown:love but doing a different thing? Like you said, like, do
Unknown:you make fun of pronouns? Do you not have your pronouns on your
Unknown:email signature? So there's, there's a signifiers that people
Unknown:within the community will look for to see if they're safe in
Unknown:your environment. And I'm reminded of a story I was told
Unknown:by my mentor who said that it's a great story it's of a kid and
Unknown:you know, a bunch of kids in kindergarten the and the
Unknown:question was asked, what is love? You know, so you're
Unknown:talking about these different ways that definitions can come
Unknown:out. And so one kid says, Love is my name safe in your mouth?
Unknown:Oh, that's power I name is safe in your mouth. And so if we
Unknown:think about that in a workplace, like is my name is My identity
Unknown:is who I am safe in your mouth, whether I'm in the room or not,
Unknown:and whether you know me or not, so whether I ever meet
Unknown:You are not so in your family, in your co workers, the the team
Unknown:that you may manage or the company you may lead or how you
Unknown:vote or where you spend and donate your money, is my name is
Unknown:My identity is my humanity safe with you? So I really think it's
Unknown:important for folks to understand, you know, the role
Unknown:that language leading to behavior and CO creating this
Unknown:culture is these are things that we're looking for,
Unknown:you know, we're looking for words and phrases, or their
Unknown:jokes or the way are people not stopping jokes. And then I know
Unknown:that I'm not safe in this environment. And then I know who
Unknown:to trust and who not to trust. And so in one of those early
Unknown:signifiers, is people who use their pronouns, for example,
Unknown:that I know that at least, they're aware enough and care
Unknown:enough to extend that signifier to folks in the community.
Unknown:You work with a variety of companies, and they're all over
Unknown:the place from just getting started or may have been working
Unknown:on di and various forms over the last two decades, right. So I'm
Unknown:super interested in what in this day and time where we're
Unknown:experiencing right now, basically, a dei backlash from
Unknown:three years ago, the summer of 2020, where there was this
Unknown:thrust forward, where there was this requirement that we need to
Unknown:start talking about racism, sexism,
Unknown:ableism, heteronormativity, etc, we have to talk about it, but we
Unknown:all suck at talking about it, especially in a work
Unknown:environment, we have terrible or no role models for this. But now
Unknown:there's this pushback, which is a signifier of progress being a
Unknown:spiral, it's not linear, it's a spiral. So we're circling
Unknown:around, which means we're going to come around the bend very
Unknown:soon, and there's going to be this momentum going forward,
Unknown:which is what listeners of this podcast are looking for is how
Unknown:to be a part of that movement, that continued forward movement
Unknown:of inclusivity in the workplace, as well as in society in
Unknown:general. So what are some of the, like the top three
Unknown:challenges that you're seeing your clients and organizations
Unknown:going through as they do this work? In the midst of this kind
Unknown:of, you know, should show
Unknown:a lot of organizations are are experiencing right now this?
Unknown:This, this identity crisis? Yeah, yeah, it's, um, it's so
Unknown:interesting to watch, because I think
Unknown:I'm seeing one of two things, either people are really
Unknown:doubling down on their values around this. So they're saying
Unknown:it's even more important than it was before?
Unknown:And those are the people we want to work with. Right? Yeah,
Unknown:that's one thing that I've I've learned in this work is that
Unknown:I would love to be able to change minds. And that is a part
Unknown:of our influence as communicators, and as
Unknown:changemakers. And I don't want to enter an organization and
Unknown:waste your money or my money, if this is something you're not
Unknown:committed to do. So it is this fine balance. Or two, there's
Unknown:people who are doubling down on the other side and saying, you
Unknown:know, what, we're just going to focus on customer
Unknown:centric operations, we're going to focus on things that, you
Unknown:know, in the short term drive profit, and aren't really a part
Unknown:of the sustainability conversation. My theory is those
Unknown:companies are going to fail. Yes, we'll see them in a year or
Unknown:two, when they it's going to be more expensive to fix. I'm right
Unknown:there with you. Exactly. So I think what the big themes that
Unknown:I'm finding, as we're, you know, because we go through an
Unknown:assessment process, we do kind of a reality check with
Unknown:organizations, we audit their value system, this is all part
Unknown:of our process. And at the end of the process, when we're
Unknown:presenting the results to them, the one thing that comes up
Unknown:every single time is leadership, role modeling,
Unknown:is a lack of reality setting around how the executive team or
Unknown:the top level leaders are actually
Unknown:exemplifying operationalizing the values in their day to day
Unknown:behavior. There's usually a realization that there's
Unknown:somebody at the top, who is counter culture to what we're
Unknown:looking to build. And there's usually a lot of hard decisions
Unknown:that need to be made. You know, I work with some companies where
Unknown:the CEO had lack of visibility that they had a problematic
Unknown:leader within the organization and through our process, they
Unknown:realized oh,
Unknown:one bad player in this is going to destruct our entire culture
Unknown:and I will say that, you know, your culture is your worst
Unknown:behavior at your organization. When I tell that to leaders, it
Unknown:kind of clicks for them like, Oh, this is this is
Unknown:A question of integrity. I get it. It's not just about a bunch
Unknown:of activity. It's also about my integrity as a leader, as a CEO
Unknown:as a founder. And they quickly started to, and legacy.
Unknown:Absolutely. So that's a big aha moment. And you know, there's
Unknown:some people, there's some leaders who really are focused
Unknown:on that legacy. And there's some who just don't get that. And so
Unknown:it's kind of a coaching opportunity throughout our time
Unknown:together to help them understand how this is impacting their
Unknown:culture, how some of this is more lagging indicators versus
Unknown:leading indicators. But I do believe, you know, we can pretty
Unknown:quickly understand if the commitment is, is there upfront,
Unknown:pretty early on, or if it's performative. And I will say
Unknown:there, there seems to be a split of those two things, and we try
Unknown:to lean towards those companies who are committed to the work.
Unknown:Yeah, absolutely. That's why I've changed how I describe the
Unknown:kind of work that I do is that I work with folks, primarily
Unknown:communicators, and leaders who are serious about learning and
Unknown:applying diversity, equity and inclusion to their
Unknown:communications on a daily basis.
Unknown:You know, so yeah, I am right there with you. You know, and
Unknown:some people may have that intention, you were talking
Unknown:about that good intention, well, intentions. They think that
Unknown:they're serious about the work. But as I have found and why I,
Unknown:you know, reached out to Janet Stovall, to co author a book
Unknown:with me on conscious communications in general, is
Unknown:that I find that a lot of communicators and leaders in
Unknown:particular, don't understand what the work is, they meant
Unknown:what they put up in the summer of 2020, and the tweets, but
Unknown:they didn't really understand what the work is that's behind
Unknown:it. So yes, there's a lot of us di practitioners that we're not
Unknown:going to participate in performative work with clients,
Unknown:because that gives an excuse to leaders to say, see, it doesn't
Unknown:work. Yes, when it's not our work that failed, right? It
Unknown:could be just mostly an education of understanding what
Unknown:the work actually is, and just coming to that agreement up
Unknown:front, to truly understand are like in are you in, and we'll
Unknown:take you where you are? Well, we'll take we'll move you where
Unknown:you from where you are, you don't have to go zero to 60. But
Unknown:you know, and there's this whole amount of work that I'm sure
Unknown:that you see, when you're making recommendations and do your
Unknown:roadmap is sometimes to your point, it's not always adding
Unknown:new things. Sometimes it's just reducing harm that makes the
Unknown:most
Unknown:right off the top. Let's let's start there.
Unknown:I would totally agree. And I think, you know, I've, and this
Unknown:is why we've become really clear up front when we work with
Unknown:clients is we just want to be clear, you are doing the work,
Unknown:we are guiding you because our goal is to work ourselves out of
Unknown:a job. We want this to be sustainable. You don't want to
Unknown:lean on us for a decade, you know, like that's not smart or
Unknown:conscious. And too, I think, you know, a lot of times we work
Unknown:with clients and not so much now because we've we've we've
Unknown:smartened up in the process, but you know, you get to that end
Unknown:point. And they see the results, and they're like, Oh, well not
Unknown:like that we didn't we didn't want you to tell us that like we
Unknown:wanted you, we wanted you to tell us what kind of training we
Unknown:need, or you know what kind of like,
Unknown:monthly DNI programs we should implement. Just like when you
Unknown:hire the wrong person, I am so sorry, we were misaligned.
Unknown:Because that's not work that's going to impact anything. It's
Unknown:throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks.
Unknown:So yeah, I totally with you. You know, there's a Harvard Business
Unknown:Journal research that I constantly share that talks
Unknown:about it's it's it's a data collected over 1000 Different
Unknown:companies, globally, actually. And these are all organizations
Unknown:that have dei strategies. And it was found in this data that 75%
Unknown:of employees at different parts in levels of the organization,
Unknown:their daily lives were not impacted or improved in any way,
Unknown:shape, or form that is 75%. So everything's staying at the top
Unknown:with the awesome branding, and the cool infographics. And there
Unknown:might be employee resource groups, but are they empowered?
Unknown:You know, to actually do a work? Do they have a business value?
Unknown:Do they have a cultural value? Are they supported in a way that
Unknown:actually has meaningful change and proved impact to you know,
Unknown:folks, his experience of the workplace culture, so there's a
Unknown:lot of education that has to go around. There's a lot of
Unknown:paradigms that we need to let go of. And Rediff
Unknown:notions of what this work actually looks like. So when
Unknown:you're working with a client, are you working with the
Unknown:communications teams? And if so, what are you needing from them?
Unknown:What are you telling them? That is their work to do as part of
Unknown:the successful outcomes of Di?
Unknown:Yeah, so like you said before, we work with organizations that
Unknown:all have all sizes, and sometimes we're working with
Unknown:organizations that don't have a communication team. So one of
Unknown:the key parts of our process is all around messaging. And so if
Unknown:there is a communications team, we work hand in hand with them
Unknown:to align messaging to align modalities of messaging, the
Unknown:content around that messaging, to the initiative, but also to
Unknown:the sustainability of that initiative. So we want to work
Unknown:within the organizational structure of how things are
Unknown:actually communicate. I think that's kind of the first step.
Unknown:There's some basics around how does that company communicate
Unknown:today. So we'd like to meet them where they are, but we also
Unknown:challenge them and ask them to get creative on ensuring that we
Unknown:are inclusively talking to everyone within the
Unknown:organization. It's not just an email that's sent to 500 people
Unknown:with the same messaging. You know, we're also using smaller
Unknown:containers of conversations and listening throughout the
Unknown:process. So we're, you know, sometimes we're coaching the
Unknown:communications team, because it might be a more of a traditional
Unknown:communications team. But you know, our goal is to create
Unknown:bilateral methods of listening and communicating. And we do
Unknown:that through a variety of modalities. But the goal is to
Unknown:plan that out ahead of time, work that plan, but then also
Unknown:kind of iterate as we go. And as we learn things, so we want to
Unknown:be strategic and intentional as possible. But with the
Unknown:flexibility to change as we go and to listen and to iterate.
Unknown:And communications really shaped the culture. There's a tone that
Unknown:set by communications kind of words that we use, are we super
Unknown:jargon heavy or always super stuck on our headquartered
Unknown:country's colloquialisms? You know, so there are all kinds of
Unknown:ways that communicators really need to step up. I'm a, I'm a
Unknown:firm believer, I don't know how you feel about this, Angela is
Unknown:that de ai efforts cannot be successful without
Unknown:communicators, getting their head around this work and
Unknown:stepping up and truly understanding what it is because
Unknown:they are co creators and shapers of the workplace culture.
Unknown:Yes, absolutely. 100%. And, you know, when I worked as a chro,
Unknown:before I started my own business, communications and
Unknown:marketing, were my two.
Unknown:Everybody was a partner in a way, but they were really close
Unknown:partners for me.
Unknown:Especially communications, because those two things are
Unknown:just so connected, like you said,
Unknown:with your experience as a Chief Human Resources Officer.
Unknown:What's your take on dei being kind of staged within HR?
Unknown:Oh, well, I think we're seeing an interesting,
Unknown:a trend around like what I like to call kind of this hero and
Unknown:Cape mentality when it comes to Chief people, officers, and also
Unknown:chief diversity officers where all of this work around culture
Unknown:and DNI sits within a person. And I think there's a lack of
Unknown:understanding that when you when you hire a chief people officer
Unknown:or chief diversity officer or chief HR officer, all the
Unknown:different, you know, titles we give heads of
Unknown:they are facilitators, they are guides. This work needs to work
Unknown:and be built within the fabric of your organizational culture.
Unknown:And I almost see it as we're, we should be working ourselves out
Unknown:of a job just like we do as consultants. The diversity team
Unknown:should also be working themselves out of a job. Now, is
Unknown:that possible? Probably not. It's kind of a meta idea. But
Unknown:it's the idea that you're building sustainability within
Unknown:the organization. So when you place DNI under HR, for example,
Unknown:first of all, you're buffering it and sending a signal that
Unknown:it's not a strategic cultural focus of the organization.
Unknown:You're also sending a signal that
Unknown:this department exists, but it exists in a vacuum, and nobody
Unknown:else should be doing this work. So I think it's detrimental to
Unknown:be honest to have DNI sit under HR
Unknown:And then I think it's detrimental if organizations are
Unknown:hiring D and AI experts or heads of thinking that that person is
Unknown:owning D and I, I love those points. And I and I completely
Unknown:agree with you, you know, there's an unintentional side of
Unknown:like, oh, this is where it goes, because there's budget, its
Unknown:culture, its employees. So we're like, that demonstrates, we
Unknown:don't really understand what dei is. So we're gonna put it in HR.
Unknown:And then there's sometimes an intentional, putting it under
Unknown:HR, because HR is always there to protect the company, and you
Unknown:know, the company first versus people first. And it could be
Unknown:there to kind of box in dei and limit its scope and impact. But
Unknown:while looking like we're doing something, but it's actually not
Unknown:meaningful, which is why we're getting a lot of this
Unknown:performative and you know, harm more than good. Sometimes it's
Unknown:intentional to keep it under control. And some of it is
Unknown:sometimes it's like, we don't know what it really is. So, you
Unknown:know, it seems like everybody else puts it under HR, when in
Unknown:fact, having its own lane, like there's it, there's legal,
Unknown:there's HR, all of those groups are embedded across the entire
Unknown:organization. Yes, there's always a finance person in every
Unknown:in every department, there's always it, there's always HR, D
Unknown:AI is no different communications should not be any
Unknown:different. There should be communications across and there
Unknown:should be di across. So it's, it's again, flipping the script,
Unknown:and really shifting the paradigms of how we understand
Unknown:and taking the time, honestly, to truly understand
Unknown:what the eye is, we keep coming back to that because it's this
Unknown:ties into the culture like of our culture, we have, like, how
Unknown:do you feel about this, Angela, something that I work with, with
Unknown:communicators is, I challenged them by saying we have a real
Unknown:lack of imagination when it comes to diversity, equity and
Unknown:inclusion.
Unknown:And so it's like we just kind of look around, even as leaders, we
Unknown:look around and just kind of see what is sometimes it's hard for
Unknown:us to like vision.
Unknown:Something my mentor says pain pushes until vision pulls, we're
Unknown:in pain.
Unknown:Pain has been pushing us to do Dei, we were in pain in the
Unknown:summer of 2020, we have we're feeling a lot of pain, a lot of
Unknown:people are feeling deeper and deeper, there's a lot of pain
Unknown:going on for the LGBTQ plus community right now with over
Unknown:550, anti, you know, LGBTQ plus bills and the criminalization
Unknown:of, of people's existence, you know, so there's a lot of pain
Unknown:that's that that people are experiencing. And in some
Unknown:organizations, that's enough to push them. But we actually have
Unknown:this tremendous opportunity to shift that momentum and actually
Unknown:be pulled by vision that takes imagination. How do you do that
Unknown:with your clients and pulling them towards this vision of, of
Unknown:understanding how their culture and their organization will be
Unknown:improved? Through this work with you?
Unknown:Yeah, it's, it's a multitude of things. But I think the first
Unknown:one is really the reality check of the gap. As to so what we do
Unknown:in the beginning with our clients is we do something
Unknown:called purpose alignment. And that is really like the
Unknown:development, the memorialization of our value system and those
Unknown:behavioral proof points, then we assess. And what we typically
Unknown:hear is, we thought we were here, but we're actually the gap
Unknown:is actually this wide, right? Like talking to the people
Unknown:within the organizations like the whole the whole executive
Unknown:team. It's like, yeah, we're inclusive. We implement all
Unknown:these equity practices, and they just like throw out buzzwords,
Unknown:right, yeah. But then you ask your people, and they're like,
Unknown:like you said, 75% of people don't feel anything. They're
Unknown:like, nope, my leader still makes me feel super, super
Unknown:unsafe. I'm walking on eggshells. I'm not recognized
Unknown:for my work. I don't feel celebrated. I don't feel like my
Unknown:identity is celebrated. I hear off putting jokes and
Unknown:microaggressions. And we, so the first thing is really to present
Unknown:the data, the reality. And then, you know, we align that with
Unknown:their purpose, the purpose workshop that they work, we work
Unknown:with them on to say, Okay, how do we start to close the gap.
Unknown:And this is a most this is, again, a multi year and a multi
Unknown:decade journey. This is not just about implementing a few things
Unknown:and saying, Look, we did it, we remeasure hopefully reassess
Unknown:every year to see how were closing the gap. And we continue
Unknown:being consistent with the evaluation on our value system.
Unknown:And we continue to hold you know, if if we continue to be
Unknown:employed by the client, you know, we're kind of
Unknown:accountability partners as well to to challenge to step into
Unknown:that channel.
Unknown:enroll and say, Hey, you said this, but you're doing this.
Unknown:Does that make sense to you? And if it does, I think we have a
Unknown:problem because we don't see it that way as your consultant. So
Unknown:I think it's about setting the vision upfront, assessing
Unknown:against that, that vision, seeing where the gaps are being
Unknown:really humble, to those results, to say, oh, shit, we have a
Unknown:problem. Let's work on that.
Unknown:I think what you shouldn't do is see those results and say things
Unknown:like, Oh, well, not like that, or that's ridiculous. It's all
Unknown:their problem and not ours, because we've seen that too. And
Unknown:then there's kind of just a shutdown.
Unknown:So there's a little bit of grieving that happens, I don't
Unknown:know how to describe it, because there's grieving. Yeah, people,
Unknown:I work a lot with leaders as they're grieving through the
Unknown:results. And this is actually part of our process. And it's a
Unknown:little bit the psychology part of it all, which is, you're
Unknown:losing something you're losing of, you're losing a vision of
Unknown:what you thought already existed, that now you see
Unknown:doesn't exist. And you see all these huge gaps in some of those
Unknown:gaps around your own leadership, or your leadership teams
Unknown:leadership or how the organization has operated thus
Unknown:far. And so it truly is a grieving process to work through
Unknown:that future vision. But you have to go through it, you have to go
Unknown:through the the murkiness and the nastiness to get there.
Unknown:It's like the five stages of grief. So oftentimes, we see
Unknown:the, the deny, or the bargaining, you see the anger,
Unknown:we're seeing that a lot. But we don't talk enough about the
Unknown:grieving part, and the accepting the acceptance, those are the
Unknown:five stages of grief. And so I really appreciate you really
Unknown:talking about that sadness, that kind of sense of loss of a
Unknown:different picture.
Unknown:And not shutting down and having that humility, to be open to
Unknown:hear what you know, because oftentimes, our leaders are
Unknown:surrounded by people that tell them what they want to hear.
Unknown:That's the beauty of going outside, you get you know, you
Unknown:know, you don't, you don't know what you don't know. And you're
Unknown:going to always cater to, you know what's going to keep your
Unknown:job or get you promoted or keep you out of trouble. But a
Unknown:consultant can come in, and just have real talk. And I think
Unknown:leaders really do respect that and actually appreciate that no
Unknown:matter how, you know, it can be really hard to hear.
Unknown:So absolutely. Let me
Unknown:ask you this, this is something that I asked everybody, and I
Unknown:really look forward to your answer as well on this as the
Unknown:name of the podcast is communicate like you give a damn
Unknown:right. So what does that sound like, in your work? To you? What
Unknown:does it feel like? What does it look like? What does it sound
Unknown:like to communicate like you give a damn?
Unknown:Yeah, so I think the first thing is understanding your people,
Unknown:not just their roles, but as humans, their wants, their
Unknown:desires, their needs, their aspirations, their agendas, you
Unknown:know, you really have to spend time understanding the nuances
Unknown:and the diversity of your people. And know that that
Unknown:translates into different ways of communicating.
Unknown:I think that's the first thing. The second thing, I think, is
Unknown:all around transparency. So a lot of leaders that I work with,
Unknown:loves to spin communications, they love to use the flowery
Unknown:language. And it's just not helpful and it does more harm
Unknown:than good. And people I think, I hate to say this, and maybe I'm,
Unknown:maybe I'm not saying it the correct way. But this is what I
Unknown:think I think a lot of leaders underestimate the brilliance of
Unknown:their people. And they think if they spin results or spin
Unknown:communications, it's just gonna, they're just gonna, like smile
Unknown:and go along with it. People are not dumb. People are really,
Unknown:really smart. And so when they can see right through the
Unknown:bullshit, so when you're constantly communicating about
Unknown:how great everything is,
Unknown:you're getting the eye rolls, trust me. So I think
Unknown:communicating like you give a damn is also being able to say
Unknown:the hardship, being vulnerable as a leader saying, You know
Unknown:what? Things aren't going well right now. We know we've had a
Unknown:focus on DNI but we're not seeing any impact. And that's a
Unknown:problem. Yeah. And here's what here's what we're going to do
Unknown:about it. Like, just be real, because if you're not people,
Unknown:people are going to roll their eyes and you're going to destroy
Unknown:the integrity of whatever kind of cultural transformation
Unknown:you're looking to make. Thank you for saying all that. Yeah,
Unknown:it's, it's yeah, just how refreshing would it be to hear
Unknown:an organization actually own where they
Unknown:Are you take responsibility for it, I was working with an
Unknown:insurance client. And they're in the CEO said, we had a much more
Unknown:racially diverse group of staff than we do now. And the only
Unknown:thing I can say to that is we took our eye off the ball. Now,
Unknown:it's a sports analogy, but one that I understand personally, to
Unknown:where it's like, yeah, if you're not intentional, and it's not a
Unknown:one and done, like you said, it's not like a chiropractic
Unknown:adjustment, we just, you know, it's one and then we never have
Unknown:to have an adjustment. Again, it's an ongoing work, it's a
Unknown:deepening work, there's always something to learn.
Unknown:So the other thing have to, I wanted it, you just have to
Unknown:stick with it, otherwise, it will get out of hand again,
Unknown:which is what we're also seeing with the LGBTQ plus community is
Unknown:that we can't take
Unknown:our rights for granted. For example, go ahead.
Unknown:And that's I wanted to mention that because we are in Pride
Unknown:Month, and I think this month has usually been a and it still
Unknown:is a time for celebration.
Unknown:And to your point, the community's rights are being
Unknown:questioned, the very existence of their bodies and humanity are
Unknown:being questioned. So I think the the messaging right now, this is
Unknown:a great example of messaging where we can be real to say,
Unknown:we want to be an organization that celebrates this community,
Unknown:but let's be real, we are at the very basic bottom of the pyramid
Unknown:right now around safety. People don't even feel safe. So you
Unknown:know, all all of the messages around celebrating pride and all
Unknown:these things, they just, I think those are, those are met with
Unknown:eye rolls, at least for me when I'm seeing a you know, an
Unknown:organization or somebody posts about pride month, and it's time
Unknown:to celebrate, like people are afraid for their lives. Let's
Unknown:talk about that. Yep. Before we talk about celebration, because
Unknown:that is the that is the pressing contextual issue right now. So I
Unknown:think there's this balance of getting us to your point, moving
Unknown:towards this vision of what should be but also acknowledging
Unknown:where we are, and having those tough conversations of where we
Unknown:are, and especially if we're not doing well,
Unknown:talking about that, and being transparent. Thank you for
Unknown:saying that. I know you're a strong ally. And I really,
Unknown:really, really appreciate that you said that is near and dear
Unknown:to my heart. Just yesterday morning, my girlfriend and I
Unknown:were talking about meeting up with some friends at a pride
Unknown:event this weekend. And she's like, I don't know, if I feel
Unknown:safe going.
Unknown:You know, there's a genuine fear we spent the week last week in
Unknown:Toronto, where, you know, walking around in the gay
Unknown:neighborhood of Toronto, we the worst thing that we were made
Unknown:aware of that could happen is like insults, physical abuse,
Unknown:those kinds of things. But there was never I didn't realize how
Unknown:alarmed not how sensitive I am to my surroundings when I'm in
Unknown:the States. How aware I am of exits. How, you know how kind of
Unknown:tense I was feeling until I was in Toronto. And realize that I
Unknown:that, you know, there was a little bit of a PST PTSD that I
Unknown:was feeling of I just didn't realize how
Unknown:how much it was impacting my sensitive little system of just
Unknown:being afraid for my safety and the safety of those around me
Unknown:until I came back to the States. It's actually been kind of a
Unknown:culture shift for me to come back to the States after being
Unknown:in a space where really the worst thing that could happen to
Unknown:me is that someone call me a name or punch me or try to stop
Unknown:me right. That's, that's, I can deal with terrifying. Yeah, I
Unknown:don't want to deal with it. But I'm not it's it's the lethality
Unknown:difference. And so, you know, so it's a very real, very personal
Unknown:experience that I'm having right now in pride is around our is
Unknown:my, my personal safety. Yeah, just going out and having a good
Unknown:time with my friends, like everybody should have the right
Unknown:and the ability to do so. So, you know, I love you your work I
Unknown:admire and respect in the incredible work that you're
Unknown:doing and making the shift and taking everything that you've
Unknown:gotten so far and turning it into a service to companies, you
Unknown:desperately need this kind of service and a little bit of a
Unknown:hand holding that you actually help them through the emotional
Unknown:side of this work, which is absolutely necessary. Not
Unknown:everything. You use data, but there can be an emotional
Unknown:reaction to that data. So you just you're there on both on all
Unknown:the fronts and I appreciate that work that you do for clients,
Unknown:how can people follow you and stay in touch with your work?
Unknown:Yeah,
Unknown:Absolutely. Well, thank you, Kim so much. You can follow me on
Unknown:LinkedIn. I'm under Angela, our Howard, our company pages call
Unknown:for culture on there. And then if you wanted to reach out,
Unknown:you can go to call for culture.com. And that's where
Unknown:you can view a little bit more about our services and how we
Unknown:help organizations through this work.
Unknown:And your podcast is, and my podcast. Oh my gosh, yes. So we
Unknown:also have a podcast and held social responsibility at work.
Unknown:And you can catch us on all over the all the podcast platforms
Unknown:anywhere where you listen.
Unknown:And yes, find our episode where you and I are having a chat
Unknown:about some some things that were going on culturally and in
Unknown:communications at the time.
Unknown:And we're still seeing the fallout of that whole scenario
Unknown:that we talked about. Thank you for being here. Angela, thank
Unknown:you so much. It was a real honor to spend this time with you.
Unknown:Thank you for sharing. Thank you so much, Kim, appreciate you
