Accessibility As Inclusion With Michael Hingson
Kim Clark interviews Michael Hingson in this week’s episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn. Hingson was born blind and grew up with parents who believed in raising their son with a can-do attitude. Kim and Michael talk about the things we need to be looking at and doing to make our channels more accessible. We need to never assume, we always need to ask. Hingson works with a company called AccessiBe which provides an artificial intelligence-based product that makes web sites accessible to all persons with disabilities. Clark and Hingson talk about the tips for designing social media and how to design within organizations with DEI from the onset. We need to get past the idea that people with disabilities lack ability!
About The Guest:
Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.
Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.
https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/
https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson
https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/
accessiBe Links
https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe
https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/
https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/
About Kim:
Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.
She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.
Communicate Like You Give A Damn Podcast
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Transcript
Hi, everybody, Kim Clark here with another
Kim Clark:opportunity to learn more dei communication skills for the
Kim Clark:variety of audiences that we constantly serve. And my special
Kim Clark:guest, today is Michael Hinkson, who has an amazing story about
Kim Clark:being in New York City in the World Trade Towers on 911. So
Kim Clark:you have to check out his story. Michael, thank you for taking
Kim Clark:the time to answer some of my questions.
Michael Hingson:Well, glad to do it. And of course, if people
Michael Hingson:really want to get the full story, being a poor, starving
Michael Hingson:author, I always promote thunder dog, the story of a blind man,
Michael Hingson:his guide dog and the triumph of trust, which is available
Michael Hingson:anywhere you get books from Barnes and Noble, to Amazon to
Michael Hingson:wherever. So hopefully, people will go by thunder dog and find
Michael Hingson:it inspiring and interesting.
Kim Clark:Thank you. Thank you. Good. Thanks for putting your
Kim Clark:story out there. So we work as communicators within companies
Kim Clark:and organizations, all over the world. And we have a lot of
Kim Clark:control over the kind of channels that we use, such as
Kim Clark:internal websites or intranet, or some sort of digital
Kim Clark:workspaces. We have meetings that we run, like the all
Kim Clark:company meetings. You know, we have feedback mechanisms for
Kim Clark:employees, we are producing videos for internally and
Kim Clark:externally. So help us understand what we need to be
Kim Clark:looking at and doing as communicators to make our
Kim Clark:channels more accessible? Well,
Michael Hingson:first thing I would say is, don't assume
Michael Hingson:people do that way too often. They think they're experts on
Michael Hingson:blindness, although they've never tried it. And the bottom
Michael Hingson:line is being blind, I will use blindness, but it can go across
Michael Hingson:other boundaries as well. But the bottom line is, don't make
Michael Hingson:assumptions. And as a result, what people really need to do is
Michael Hingson:to ask people, one of the biggest fears is getting anyone
Michael Hingson:let's say, who is blind, as an employee in a company, oh, it's
Michael Hingson:going to cost too much, oh, it's going to just be very difficult,
Michael Hingson:oh, I'm going to have to change so many things. How do you know
Michael Hingson:is it really going to cost much, given the amount of money that
Michael Hingson:we spend today, with what we provide for employees to keep
Michael Hingson:them comfortable, and so on, I don't see the problem. coffee
Michael Hingson:machines. And I've seen some that are pretty fancy with
Michael Hingson:touchscreens, and they'll do anything from coffee and tea and
Michael Hingson:hot chocolate and all different kinds of coffee, and everything
Michael Hingson:else. And the companies pay for that. They pay for Windows so
Michael Hingson:you can look outside. They pay for air conditioning to keep you
Michael Hingson:cool. They pay for lighting, so you can see your way around. But
Michael Hingson:if I want a screen reading piece of software so that I can hear
Michael Hingson:whatever is going across what you would see on your monitor,
Michael Hingson:Oh, that's too expensive. We can't provide that balderdash.
Michael Hingson:It's what's called a reasonable accommodation under the
Michael Hingson:Americans with Disabilities Act. And why shouldn't I be able to
Michael Hingson:have a screen reading software package that will allow me to
Michael Hingson:hear what's on the computer, since we already provide
Michael Hingson:everyone else with monitors that allow you to see what's on the
Michael Hingson:computer screen? So the bottom line is don't ask or don't don't
Michael Hingson:assume, ask and find out what it really costs and don't make
Michael Hingson:assumptions about what blindness is or blindness isn't. Because
Michael Hingson:the reality is, you probably will totally miss assess it. And
Michael Hingson:so the first thing to do is to ask. The second thing is one of
Michael Hingson:the things if you truly go down this road, you will learn that
Michael Hingson:there are a lot of things that you could do to make a meeting
Michael Hingson:or anything you do more usable for a blind person that will
Michael Hingson:actually help everyone in the company. Perfect example,
Michael Hingson:meeting coming up in two days, everyone needs to be there or a
Michael Hingson:group of people need to be there. What typically happens,
Michael Hingson:all the handouts are created, a PowerPoint presentation may even
Michael Hingson:be created. But everything is created and handed out at the
Michael Hingson:meeting. What's the problem with that? People are going to spend
Michael Hingson:their time reading the PowerPoint, people are going to
Michael Hingson:spend their time reading the handouts, when if you were truly
Michael Hingson:efficient, you would get all that information to them ahead
Michael Hingson:of time. So that in fact, when you're at the actual meeting,
Michael Hingson:you can truly be more productive and efficient and actually deal
Michael Hingson:with the issues that you want to talk about rather than allowing
Michael Hingson:time for people to prepare, when they should do that ahead of
Michael Hingson:time. Some of us call that concept, no Braille, no meeting,
Michael Hingson:if you don't provide me the information and it may or may
Michael Hingson:not need to truly be available in Braille but it needs to be
Michael Hingson:made available in a usable electronic form. If you do that,
Michael Hingson:and If you do that, for everyone who's going to be at the
Michael Hingson:meeting, think of how much more time you can truly spend
Michael Hingson:discussing the issues of the meeting, rather than people just
Michael Hingson:spending all their time reading it. And, in general, there is so
Michael Hingson:much that we could do to make information more accessible
Michael Hingson:ahead of time. I've been to so many speeches, where people do
Michael Hingson:these great glorious PowerPoint presentations. And the speaker
Michael Hingson:is off talking, whatever the speaker is talking about, but
Michael Hingson:again, what are people doing, they're reading the PowerPoint
Michael Hingson:presentation, rather than the speaker talking about the
Michael Hingson:PowerPoint presentation, bringing in the data that's on
Michael Hingson:the PowerPoint presentation, if they truly need to show it, they
Michael Hingson:should be talking about it as well, so that people who don't
Michael Hingson:see the PowerPoint presentation can follow it. So the bottom
Michael Hingson:line is, it takes not a lot of preparation. What it takes is a
Michael Hingson:change in mindset to recognize some people may not get the
Michael Hingson:information the way you are. And oh, by the way, what about
Michael Hingson:people who are dyslexic people who have dyslexia aren't going
Michael Hingson:to read that information on the PowerPoint presentation either.
Michael Hingson:So it really is fair to reconsider how we present
Michael Hingson:information and meetings or other things that we do with the
Michael Hingson:company. And to truly make it an inclusive environment. I could
Michael Hingson:also make the case that if you hire a blind person, for
Michael Hingson:example, that accompany and you truly allow them to become part
Michael Hingson:of the company, the odds are you're going to have a much more
Michael Hingson:loyal employee at that company than you would ever have from
Michael Hingson:just hiring the average person who happens to be able to see
Michael Hingson:who when the next job with a higher potential salary comes
Michael Hingson:along, they'll jump ship. For me as a blind person. I appreciate
Michael Hingson:how hard it was to probably get that job in the first place. And
Michael Hingson:I'm not really as likely to go off and just jump unless
Michael Hingson:somebody makes me an incredible offer. I can't refuse. But I
Michael Hingson:would also probably bring that to you and say, look, here's
Michael Hingson:what's happening. What do we do about that? The reality is I'm
Michael Hingson:going to be loyal to the people who are loyal to me a lot more
Michael Hingson:than most people are. And that's an incredibly valuable asset
Michael Hingson:that companies don't tend to recognize.
Kim Clark:Oh, that was excellent. Thank you so much for
Kim Clark:all of those tips, Michael. All doable within our power to be
Kim Clark:thinking through. Absolutely.
Michael Hingson:It's absolutely all doable. It's not magic at
Michael Hingson:all.
Kim Clark:Can we can you talk about you work with
Kim Clark:accessibility? Now this is about websites and making them more
Kim Clark:accessible? And so talk through like, what do we need to be
Kim Clark:looking at and doing around our websites to ensure that they are
Kim Clark:more accessible as well.
Michael Hingson:The World Wide Web Consortium has created
Michael Hingson:something called the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines. Some
Michael Hingson:companies have adopted them, they adopted them as actual
Michael Hingson:standards, but places like the US have not yet done so. But the
Michael Hingson:guidelines are there and they define what having an accessible
Michael Hingson:website means. It means things like when you create a link,
Michael Hingson:using technology, which any good coder knows how to do to make
Michael Hingson:sure that the links are labeled. So when I come across a link, I
Michael Hingson:don't hear link, I hear Facebook link or twitter link or order
Michael Hingson:link. The the carts are accessible because they are
Michael Hingson:appropriately labeled and made so that anyone can use them.
Michael Hingson:None of that is really hard to do. The problem is we don't
Michael Hingson:emphasize it because we don't emphasize disabilities. We still
Michael Hingson:operate under the premise that disability means lack of
Michael Hingson:ability. We've had no problem taking the word diversity and
Michael Hingson:throwing disabilities out of diversity. How often do you hear
Michael Hingson:Hollywood? Or do you hear most companies talking about
Michael Hingson:diversity, and what they define as being a diverse population,
Michael Hingson:gender, race, sexual orientation, some social
Michael Hingson:attitudes, disabilities aren't included? Because the
Michael Hingson:presumption is we're still not capable. And that's why we have
Michael Hingson:a 70% plus unemployment rate among employable persons with
Michael Hingson:disabilities in the United States. It's not that we can't
Michael Hingson:work it's people think we can't work because as I also said,
Michael Hingson:once before, they've never tried it. The reality is they should
Michael Hingson:give us the same opportunities and the same benefits of the
Michael Hingson:doubt that they give other people only access a B was
Michael Hingson:created by three guys who started a company in 2015 in
Michael Hingson:Israel to make websites for customers, and they made a whole
Michael Hingson:slew of websites and they sold them all and did a great job.
Michael Hingson:But then 2017 came along in Israel, legislature said
Michael Hingson:websites have to be accessible. And these guys are going What do
Michael Hingson:we do? Above that, they studied it. They're bright guys, they
Michael Hingson:were actually in 2019, under the Forbes 30, under 30 group, they
Michael Hingson:were very interested in how do we make this work. And they
Michael Hingson:created to start with an artificial, intelligent widget
Michael Hingson:that is a piece of technology that sits in the cloud. And they
Michael Hingson:started selling it to people, it's like $500 a year to get it.
Michael Hingson:And what it does is it goes through and an analyzes your
Michael Hingson:website. And then what it does by analyzing it is to say,
Michael Hingson:here's what I can fix, here's what I can fix, and it will go
Michael Hingson:off and fix all the things that it can. So what we'll put labels
Michael Hingson:on links, because a Facebook link is a Facebook link that
Michael Hingson:people know about, because there's something for sighted
Michael Hingson:people that tell you, it's Facebook, not necessarily for me
Michael Hingson:as a blind person. But the link, whatever is in that graphic
Michael Hingson:defines it as Facebook or Twitter or whatever. And so
Michael Hingson:excessively looks at that, and it says, It's Facebook link, I'm
Michael Hingson:gonna put the Facebook label in, and so that when somebody comes
Michael Hingson:across that link, they'll actually hear it's a Facebook
Michael Hingson:link, or you get to a link that has a little arrow at the
Michael Hingson:bottom, that indicates it's a drop down. And if you click on
Michael Hingson:that appropriately, it will open the menu or whatever. But if I
Michael Hingson:hear that link, unless somebody has labeled it appropriately, it
Michael Hingson:just says link. And if I click on it, I get a different
Michael Hingson:response than you do. But when excessive B encounters that
Michael Hingson:link, it says oh, there's this little arrow here at the bottom,
Michael Hingson:it's a drop down, I'm going to go ahead and indicate that it's
Michael Hingson:a drop down or a menu. And so when I come across a link after
Michael Hingson:excessive BS running on a website, and it has that little
Michael Hingson:arrow at the bottom, it says to me like products menu, and if I
Michael Hingson:click on it, the menu opens up just like it does for you. None
Michael Hingson:of the coding is complex, really. But it still is
Michael Hingson:something that only happens when people are aware and take the
Michael Hingson:time to do something about it. The problem is, especially on
Michael Hingson:smaller websites, to hire somebody to do well, that could
Michael Hingson:cost 1000s of dollars. And that's why as I said excessively
Michael Hingson:is only a few $100. And it's a few $100 a year, because once
Michael Hingson:you've done what you can with the widget, the AI widget to
Michael Hingson:make the website accessible, it will continue to monitor the
Michael Hingson:website. And anytime you make changes, and so on, it will fix
Michael Hingson:whatever comes along that it can to continue to provide
Michael Hingson:accessibility for the things that it doesn't do with the AI
Michael Hingson:widget, such as pictures of people and complex graphs and so
Michael Hingson:on depending on the site, what it will do is to tell you what
Michael Hingson:it can't do. And then you either can get a coder to fix it a
Michael Hingson:programmer or accessibly has the services to do that. So the
Michael Hingson:bottom line is access a B today makes inclusion available for a
Michael Hingson:variety of disabilities, there are some that it still doesn't
Michael Hingson:do directly with the widget. So for example, if you have a
Michael Hingson:website with a bunch of videos, you can't use artificial
Michael Hingson:intelligence to put in audio descriptions. So I know what's
Michael Hingson:on those videos. But accessibilities service staff
Michael Hingson:under a product called Access flow can help do that. They can
Michael Hingson:remediate and make PDF documents that are otherwise inaccessible,
Michael Hingson:accessible. So excessively can do the full service or they can
Michael Hingson:provide the widget part. And then if you've got other people
Michael Hingson:that you're using already to make your website the rest of
Michael Hingson:the way accessible. Let the artificial intelligent widget do
Michael Hingson:what it can and your coders have a much less complicated time
Michael Hingson:making the rest of the site accessible. And that's what
Michael Hingson:accessibility is. If anyone wants to learn about it, they
Michael Hingson:can go to access a B ACCE SSI, B e.com. And one of the things
Michael Hingson:that you can do while you're there is you can go to the link
Michael Hingson:that says Find out how accessible your website is, you
Michael Hingson:plug in your website, and it will tell you how accessible it
Michael Hingson:is or it isn't. And then you can decide how you want to address
Michael Hingson:that from there. But today, the Department of Justice has said
Michael Hingson:that the internet is a place of reasonable accommodations. So
Michael Hingson:the bottom line is people need to make their websites
Michael Hingson:accessible, there is no excuse for not doing it. And do it for
Michael Hingson:the right reason. Yeah, you can be sued. That can happen.
Michael Hingson:Lawyers are always looking for money. But here's the real
Michael Hingson:reason to do it. The Nielsen Company, you know, the Nielsen
Michael Hingson:ratings, people did a survey in 2016. And what they found in the
Michael Hingson:2016 survey was that persons with disabilities tend to be
Michael Hingson:incredibly much more brand loyal to websites and to brands that
Michael Hingson:they can use. In other words, if I go to a website, and I can use
Michael Hingson:it, I'm not going to go elsewhere to do shopping unless
Michael Hingson:it really doesn't have on that site, the product that I want.
Michael Hingson:I'm going to go to where I can use the site rather than having
Michael Hingson:a lot of complicated things. And so If you make your website
Michael Hingson:truly usable for persons with disabilities, using the numbers
Michael Hingson:from the Center for Disease Control, you are making your
Michael Hingson:website available to 25% more people than you ever would have
Michael Hingson:had access to before. And when you want to do that, get all
Michael Hingson:that extra business, I would.
Kim Clark:Thank you that I'm sitting here nodding a lot,
Kim Clark:because I don't want to interrupt you audibly. But just
Kim Clark:know that I, I just really appreciate everything that you
Kim Clark:said. And you're right. There's just no excuses. Absolutely no
Kim Clark:excuses.
Michael Hingson:There is no excuse. Today, it's a lack of
Michael Hingson:education, and there shouldn't be a lack of education. And all
Michael Hingson:the capabilities are there, if we would do it.
Kim Clark:And that's a big part of what we do as conscious
Kim Clark:communicators is being very intentional. You know, and being
Kim Clark:conscious about our different channels and how accessible they
Kim Clark:are. Let me ask you a couple of questions around social media
Kim Clark:and storytelling. First, I'll start with social media. So as
Kim Clark:something that while you were talking about the websites, I
Kim Clark:think about hashtags. And I think about images that people
Kim Clark:post, that there are now like major social media platforms
Kim Clark:that invite someone to do an alt tag within the image. Can you
Kim Clark:walk through the importance of that, as well as with hashtags
Kim Clark:I've been told if there's multiple words and a hashtag to
Kim Clark:have a capital letter at the beginning of each word. So it
Kim Clark:can be read by screen readers. And so I just want to double
Kim Clark:check that with you. Is that accurate? And and what are some
Kim Clark:tips around social media posts that we can make more
Kim Clark:accessible?
Michael Hingson:Well, if you have a hashtag like hashtag Elmo
Michael Hingson:Schwartz? Yeah, you're gonna probably capitalize Elmo and
Michael Hingson:Schwartz. So let's say you have a hashtag like, runner in
Michael Hingson:Sherwood Forest. Well, Sherwood's capitalized, but
Michael Hingson:anyway, I don't know that it has to be capitalized, it certainly
Michael Hingson:would, would help define the word if there's, if there's,
Michael Hingson:well, I guess the issue really is if you've got several words
Michael Hingson:in, you don't with a hashtag, you don't put a space between
Michael Hingson:them. Right? Right. And so like, so that's why you put the
Michael Hingson:capital letters so that the system the person will hear
Michael Hingson:hashtag running down the street, you capitalize the AR, the D,
Michael Hingson:the T and the s. And it will be a lot easier for person to hear
Michael Hingson:hashtag running down the street, then right on the street, and
Michael Hingson:it's all combined together, and it tries to treat it as one
Michael Hingson:separate word. So that's the reason for doing it. It isn't
Michael Hingson:it's a clarity issue. So it makes sense to put a capital
Michael Hingson:letter in at the beginning of each word, since they're all
Michael Hingson:connected together, and there's no space, the idea behind all
Michael Hingson:tags, and so on. Those are the kinds of things that create the
Michael Hingson:labels, so that I understand what a picture shows. And when
Michael Hingson:there is an opportunity to put those tags in people should do
Michael Hingson:it. What's really unfortunate is you've got companies like
Michael Hingson:WordPress, WordPress creates, through its technology, hundreds
Michael Hingson:1000s or 10s of 1000s of websites inexpensively. What it
Michael Hingson:does not do is have any facility requiring that those websites be
Michael Hingson:accessible. If WordPress would right from the outset, as a
Michael Hingson:person who is designing a website using WordPress tools,
Michael Hingson:insist that accessibility has to be included and guide someone
Michael Hingson:through that process like everything else, then all those
Michael Hingson:websites would be accessible. Well, WordPress doesn't do that.
Michael Hingson:Apple made their iPhone accessible, they were gonna get
Michael Hingson:sued, but they did it. They made the apple the iPhone, the iPod,
Michael Hingson:now the poor late iPod, the MacBook Pro, well, all MacBooks
Michael Hingson:and other technologies, iTunes U and so on, they've made
Michael Hingson:accessible. And they've done a good job with it. I can go to
Michael Hingson:any store by any iPhone. And it will allow me if I'm the first
Michael Hingson:person to turn it on, to be able to invoke accessibility right
Michael Hingson:from the outset. So I can then use it. I can always do it
Michael Hingson:later. But it's great when I can do it myself right from the
Michael Hingson:outset. Microsoft has done that. And I know Dell has done that
Michael Hingson:with some of their computer systems. I bought one a few
Michael Hingson:years ago a Dell system. And I didn't even realize it. And when
Michael Hingson:I turned it on, it started talking to me and it says do you
Michael Hingson:want accessibility? I went, Oh, that's great. But here's the
Michael Hingson:problem even with Apple. They don't do a single solitary thing
Michael Hingson:to require that Apple app developer burrs include
Michael Hingson:accessibility. So I can have an app that works one day and it's
Michael Hingson:totally inaccessible the next day with the next update. And no
Michael Hingson:matter what guidelines and information Apple provides,
Michael Hingson:there's no requirement to do that. Apple with the Apple
Michael Hingson:police that deal with every app that comes through their store
Michael Hingson:have any number of different things that they require. And
Michael Hingson:they could require that level of accessibility of some sort to be
Michael Hingson:in every app, and they don't do that. So there's a long way to
Michael Hingson:go. And there's no doubt that the best way to deal with access
Michael Hingson:is to make it native right from the outset, whether it be for me
Michael Hingson:as a blind person, whether it be using different kinds of
Michael Hingson:technologies, and emphasizing words for a person with
Michael Hingson:dyslexia, or ADHD, whether it be something where it gives a
Michael Hingson:person the ability to turn off the requirement to use a mouse
Michael Hingson:to highlight something, but rather use a keyboard, any
Michael Hingson:number of things, all those are options. And the the
Michael Hingson:manufacturers of the technologies and so on couldn't
Michael Hingson:make that stuff available, if they would, but they don't. So
Michael Hingson:today, for example, there can be a Windows Update, that will
Michael Hingson:suddenly cause my screen reader not to talk properly, because
Michael Hingson:Windows made a change in the screen reader manufacturer has
Michael Hingson:to catch up rather than Windows dealing with it from the outset.
Michael Hingson:So there's a lot that needs to be done even by the bigger
Michael Hingson:organizations.
Kim Clark:Designing the DEI from the beginning, that's
Kim Clark:really the call to action. In specifically,
Michael Hingson:it's true inclusion right from the outset.
Kim Clark:Yeah, absolutely. Just embedded through the
Kim Clark:process across the organization. All right. Now, something that a
Kim Clark:lot of us communicators do is a lot of storytelling. And one
Kim Clark:thing that I want to make sure that us as conscious
Kim Clark:communicators do is to make sure that we're not participating in
Kim Clark:any kind of performative storytelling around the
Kim Clark:community of you know, people with disabilities, how do we
Kim Clark:make sure that our storytelling is truly authentic, and helpful?
Kim Clark:Encouraging transformation and encouraging visibility, and
Kim Clark:calls to action? In advocacy for people with disabilities to
Kim Clark:ensure that we're not, you know, that we're not performative? In
Kim Clark:our storytelling? What kind of tips do you
Michael Hingson:have stories, like a long time ago, when a
Michael Hingson:galaxy far far? Look, the best thing to do? There are
Michael Hingson:organizations of persons with disabilities and one thing to do
Michael Hingson:is to go to some of those organizations like the National
Michael Hingson:Federation of the Blind. And and to talk with them or to if you
Michael Hingson:know, someone who has a particular disability, you can
Michael Hingson:you can always go talk with them. But if you want to look
Michael Hingson:for trends, I would I would definitely suggest going to
Michael Hingson:consumer organizations. So here's a great example. If you
Michael Hingson:talk to a person who is deaf, or who doesn't hear well, how do
Michael Hingson:you describe those people?
Kim Clark:I'm now asking you. Well, since I write inclusive
Kim Clark:communications guides, I can kind of cheat and say that I've
Kim Clark:had people who are definitely review those sections, and what
Kim Clark:did
Michael Hingson:they and what did they say that you should
Michael Hingson:describe them as,
Kim Clark:as deaf? Or? Hard of Hearing?
Michael Hingson:Exactly. Now, why not hearing impaired? Why is
Michael Hingson:it deaf or hard of hearing? And not deaf or hearing impaired?
Kim Clark:Well, I know that there's a lot of stigma that has
Kim Clark:been perpetuated as far as to your earlier point of still of
Kim Clark:being incapable or lesser than. And so we're censoring the
Kim Clark:person. And some are choosing identity first. But in general,
Kim Clark:especially those of us who aren't part of that population,
Kim Clark:my understanding and please correct me if I'm wrong, that
Kim Clark:the community wishes to be people first. If we're talking
Kim Clark:at it from a general sense,
Michael Hingson:well, but the preference is deaf or hard of
Michael Hingson:hearing, deaf or hard of hearing, but not deaf or hearing
Michael Hingson:impaired. Because hearing impaired does create such a
Michael Hingson:stigma is such a negative thing. You're now comparing a person
Michael Hingson:who doesn't hear well, to a person who hears well, your
Michael Hingson:hearing impaired as opposed to hard of hearing and I know many
Michael Hingson:politicians who might score well on an audio test but they
Michael Hingson:certainly are not able to hear very well but we won't go there.
Michael Hingson:But in the Why in this world, for example, because of all of
Michael Hingson:the professionals in the world still, we're referred to as
Michael Hingson:blind or visually impaired. There are two problems with
Michael Hingson:visually impaired one. Visually, I'm not different if I happen to
Michael Hingson:be blind. Why do people say that? Because you're, you're
Michael Hingson:visually impaired because you're blind. So you don't, you clearly
Michael Hingson:don't look the same. It's not a visual thing at all. And then
Michael Hingson:the whole concept also of impaired, why is it that we have
Michael Hingson:such a hard time getting people to say, blind or low vision,
Michael Hingson:just like we talked about deaf or hard of hearing, the stigmas
Michael Hingson:are still there. Even years ago, the Gallup polling organization
Michael Hingson:did a number of surveys about people's fears. One of the top
Michael Hingson:five fears up until the 2000s. And a little after one of those
Michael Hingson:top five fears was blindness wasn't even disabilities, it was
Michael Hingson:blindness. Because as a society, we emphasize eyesight so much,
Michael Hingson:and all of the professionals in the field, the educators and
Michael Hingson:everyone else, all of the so called experts call us blind or
Michael Hingson:visually impaired, and they they have they have created the
Michael Hingson:problem. And we do need to change it. It's not impaired.
Michael Hingson:And it's the same, I think, for virtually any disability, you
Michael Hingson:can come up with terms that take the stigma out of it. My wife
Michael Hingson:was a wheelchair user for her whole life, mobility impaired,
Michael Hingson:she would react to that and object to that wheelchair user
Michael Hingson:different story, right. And the reality is, you can't put
Michael Hingson:everybody in the same bucket. So the issue is the best way to
Michael Hingson:deal with storytelling and so on is to just ask. And like I said,
Michael Hingson:the organizations of persons with disabilities will probably
Michael Hingson:be the source that will give you the most inclusive answer. If
Michael Hingson:you ask any individual I know any number of blind people who
Michael Hingson:say, Well, I'm visually impaired, what are you talking
Michael Hingson:about? You're wrong? No, you're not visually impaired. You say
Michael Hingson:you are because you're used to that, but you're not impaired.
Michael Hingson:Your lack of eyesight doesn't make you less than anyone else.
Michael Hingson:Your lack of eyesight means that you'll do things in a different
Michael Hingson:way. But it doesn't mean you're impaired. And that's what we
Michael Hingson:have to deal with. And I gave you that example. Because just
Michael Hingson:two months ago, I was doing a speech at a school system in
Michael Hingson:Northern California, and there was a blind woman who attended
Michael Hingson:virtually. And she called me out on visual impairment. She said,
Michael Hingson:I'm visually impaired and I said, No, you're not, you're
Michael Hingson:blind, or you're low vision, but you're not impaired. And it was
Michael Hingson:like pulling teeth to get her to even start to think about the
Michael Hingson:fact that maybe saying impaired was something that had such a
Michael Hingson:horrible negative connotation. We need to get away from it.
Kim Clark:I love this conversation. Thank you. Thank
Kim Clark:you. And that makes me come. That makes me think of one more
Kim Clark:question for you, Michael. In the Diversity, Equity and
Kim Clark:Inclusion space, oftentimes, the term blind spots come up when
Kim Clark:it's talking about unconscious bias or microaggressions. I
Kim Clark:don't know what I don't know, I have blind spots, or those kinds
Kim Clark:of terms, you know, something that we need to be changing in
Kim Clark:our vernacular,
Michael Hingson:I think that's going a little too far. It
Michael Hingson:doesn't bother me. And it's, it's true. I mean, you have
Michael Hingson:spots that you don't see in cars have blind spots, for example.
Michael Hingson:We can carry it to such extremes. And I don't think that
Michael Hingson:we need to, to deal with that. As long as we understand what it
Michael Hingson:is we're talking about. And we all do have blind spots of one
Michael Hingson:sort or another. It's okay, I watch television, by the way, I
Michael Hingson:watch movies, the dictionary defines to see as to perceive,
Michael Hingson:at least that's one of the definitions. So I don't see a
Michael Hingson:need to object to something like blind spot. Oh, I'm sure there
Michael Hingson:are some who do. But I think you're carrying it too far when
Michael Hingson:you go that way. So blind spot doesn't denigrate me. It
Michael Hingson:describes a specific situation. And it makes perfect sense. I am
Michael Hingson:blind, someone who can't see out of what can't see what's behind
Michael Hingson:them in their car or on the side of their car because they don't
Michael Hingson:have cameras as a blind spot. They can't see there. Why worry
Michael Hingson:about it. I think there are a lot more horrible things to
Michael Hingson:worry about it in the world than that.
Kim Clark:Well, we definitely want to make sure a lot of
Kim Clark:conscious communicators say we don't want to, you know,
Kim Clark:unintentionally offend anyone, right and sure, you're talking
Kim Clark:about
Michael Hingson:But but think about what you're doing. And I'm
Michael Hingson:sure that you will find people who would object to blind spot.
Michael Hingson:But I think that the reality is, the vast majority of us
Michael Hingson:recognize what that term is. And it doesn't denigrate us. You
Michael Hingson:turn a blind eye to something. Justice is blind, should we not
Michael Hingson:use those? I think that I'm not sure justice isn't, is blind.
Michael Hingson:But that's, you know, another story. Perhaps it should be, but
Michael Hingson:it's not. But blindness isn't the problem. It's our
Michael Hingson:perceptions of it. And so, we need to recognize that we can
Michael Hingson:carry things to too many extremes, too.
Kim Clark:Hmm. I think you're one of the points that you made
Kim Clark:earlier about this is something that's included in the inclusive
Kim Clark:communication guides that I do for clients is that one of the
Kim Clark:first of the checklist is to say, does it demean people,
Kim Clark:human beings?
Michael Hingson:Yeah. Does blind spot demean anybody?
Kim Clark:Yeah, I don't think so. Right. Exactly. I'm but if
Kim Clark:we were to use the phrase, actually, yeah. What are you
Kim Clark:blind? You know, that's a
Michael Hingson:different story. Right? And of course, if
Michael Hingson:somebody says that to me, the answer is going to be Yeah. And
Michael Hingson:you. What are you stupid?
Kim Clark:Right, understood. So I have one more question for
Kim Clark:you. I have been on a number of webinars is I'm a perpetual
Kim Clark:students. And I listen to a variety of people from a variety
Kim Clark:of backgrounds and experiences that I don't personally have
Kim Clark:intentionally. It's, it's part of my work, right. And something
Kim Clark:that I have seen is a, some people will start off these
Kim Clark:webinars, saying, Hi, I'm Ken Clark. And they will describe
Kim Clark:what they look like, what they're wearing the colors, the
Kim Clark:color of their hair color. And so I wanted to get your feedback
Kim Clark:on that. What do you think about that? Should that be an ongoing
Kim Clark:practice?
Michael Hingson:Personally, I don't need it. I've never seen
Michael Hingson:colors. So if you tell me you're blonde, doesn't mean a thing to
Michael Hingson:be. I think, again, we can carry things to extremes. Somebody
Michael Hingson:decided to start that practice. And I know some people like to
Michael Hingson:hear it. And typically, it's people probably who have had
Michael Hingson:some eyesight. And so it equates to them. I don't know that
Michael Hingson:that's totally true. But I know for me, personally, I don't need
Michael Hingson:the description. I'm going to learn about you by talking with
Michael Hingson:you, and getting to know the person and a lot about you. And
Michael Hingson:if we're in the same room and talking together, I'll figure
Michael Hingson:out how tall you are when I stand near you and talk to you
Michael Hingson:and so on. Do I really need those descriptions, it doesn't
Michael Hingson:add a lot of value to me. So I don't particularly need it to
Michael Hingson:happen. Again. I'm sure there are people who do and they're
Michael Hingson:getting used to it. But for me, I don't need that.
Kim Clark:Michael, anything else that you would like to
Kim Clark:advise us as communicators and content creators to make things
Kim Clark:more accessible?
Michael Hingson:I think the most important thing is to make
Michael Hingson:sure that you seek out making things inclusive, and that you
Michael Hingson:ask the questions. I'm glad to be a resource any way I can for
Michael Hingson:any of your people who who listen to this. They're always
Michael Hingson:welcome to reach out to me. Emails real easy, Mike, Michael
Michael Hingson:hingson, mi ch AE l h i n g s o n.com. And I know you're gonna
Michael Hingson:put all this up, but people are welcome to reach out. And I'm
Michael Hingson:glad to help any way that I can. I think it's mostly common
Michael Hingson:sense. And just don't think that we're less than anybody else,
Michael Hingson:just because we're different.
Kim Clark:Thank you, Michael. This has been an incredible
Kim Clark:conversation and so helpful. I really appreciate knowing you.
Kim Clark:And I really appreciate your time today. Thank you.
Michael Hingson:And next time we get to talk to you and
Michael Hingson:interview you on unstoppable mindset. So everybody stay tuned
Michael Hingson:for that.
Kim Clark:Absolutely. I'm really looking forward to
Michael Hingson:and if any of you have any questions that you
Michael Hingson:want me to pin down Kim with you does let me know. He's gonna
Michael Hingson:edit this out. I bet but oh, the chair
Kim Clark:is swinging. All right, Michael, thanks for your
Kim Clark:time.
Michael Hingson:My pleasure. Thank you, Kim.
