The Power Of Possibility For DEI Communicators With Rev D.

Kim Clark: 00:00:05

Rev D, thank you so much for returning to

Kim Clark: 00:00:09

communicate like you give a damn. The podcast that is trying

Kim Clark: 00:00:14

to get communicators and all those who do content and

Kim Clark: 00:00:18

communications in an interpersonal setting to

Kim Clark: 00:00:21

understand our role and responsibility in diversity,

Kim Clark: 00:00:24

equity and inclusion and and really applying it to our daily

Kim Clark: 00:00:27

work. And you and I did a podcast already. And something

Kim Clark: 00:00:32

you said to me, after we recorded made it really clear

Kim Clark: 00:00:36

that there you're going to be a reoccurring, like CNN

Kim Clark: 00:00:40

correspondent, as part of our podcast.

Unknown: 00:00:45

So thank you for coming back. And not everyone's going

Unknown: 00:00:48

to listen to the episodes, obviously, in order. So I would

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love for you to introduce yourself, and then we'll get

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into this new round of content I think people are gonna really

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get a lot from so Reverend Deborah Johnson, also known as

Unknown: 00:01:03

Rev. D now, and also affectionately known as Rev. D.

Unknown: 00:01:07

Please introduce yourself. Rev.

Rev. Deborah Johnson: 00:01:10

Well, thank you, Kim. It's a pleasure

Rev. Deborah Johnson: 00:01:13

to be back. I appreciate the work that you're doing in the

Rev. Deborah Johnson: 00:01:17

field as well.

Unknown: 00:01:19

Yes, I have been in the field of diversity for over four

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decades, professionally. And my passion is really about killing

Unknown: 00:01:29

divides. I've been all kinds of clients from corporate, from

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the fortune 500 corporate clients, to nonprofit

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organizations, public sector, military. And I find that

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although the environments are different, there are certain

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fundamentals that are going to be true everywhere. And I've

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been in the trenches with two landmark court cases in the

Unknown: 00:02:01

state of California.

Unknown: 00:02:04

Oh, please, you can't leave us hang in there.

Unknown: 00:02:08

Tell us more.

Unknown: 00:02:11

Well, the first is a case that was won in 1984. That set

Unknown: 00:02:15

precedent for the inclusion of sexual orientation in the

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California Civil Rights Bill. It was actually the first to happen

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anywhere in the nation, which set the precedent to be able to

Unknown: 00:02:28

have things such as marriage equality. And then later in

Unknown: 00:02:31

2005, I was also a successful co defendant, this time, in a case

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against the governor, our former governor in California, Gray

Unknown: 00:02:43

Davis, who signed into law on the way out of his recall, the

Unknown: 00:02:48

domestic partnerships bill, and there was a challenge to that.

Unknown: 00:02:52

And I was able to be part of the successful keeping it in place,

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which once again, helped to set the precedent for marriage

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equality. So what I'm hearing is that for Black History Month, or

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pride month, people should be telling your story, you should

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be a part of the did you know, and you know about LGBTQ plus

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history and the intersectionality as well of

Unknown: 00:03:21

your identities, you have a variety of identities that

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really inform your work. And you just gave us just a little tiny

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sample size of that shows up in actual manifestation of not only

Unknown: 00:03:35

advancing visibility, but like you said, logbooks, precedents,

Unknown: 00:03:42

that has led to just the right to be out. In general. Yes, sir.

Unknown: 00:03:48

Some companies actually would do that, particularly when I worked

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with various affinity groups within the same organization.

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Apple, for example, was big with that, were Appalam, the, the

Unknown: 00:04:00

LGBTQ group and the women's group and their black affinity

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group would all pull their resources, you know, together

Unknown: 00:04:09

and and bring me in.

Unknown: 00:04:12

And now companies are investing. With bigger budgets. However, D

Unknown: 00:04:18

AI is still nowhere close to where it needs to be. Because

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we've seen this recently as we record this in April of 2023,

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mass layoffs, especially within the DEI field. So if companies

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had truly put dei into place and embedded it across the

Unknown: 00:04:34

organizations, especially since the Great White awakening, from

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the summer of 2020.

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The embedding the practice actually has not truly been

Unknown: 00:04:43

embraced as of yet because we would not have seen the layoffs

Unknown: 00:04:46

at the scale that we have most recently. Now I want to get into

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language, specifically because that's definitely what we talk

Unknown: 00:04:54

about here on this podcast, but there's something that you left

Unknown: 00:04:58

me feeling and thinking

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bout after, when we were done recording the first episode that

Unknown: 00:05:04

I've got to dive into here. You said, di doesn't have five

Unknown: 00:05:10

years.

Unknown: 00:05:12

And I went, just hold that thought, I'm going to schedule

Unknown: 00:05:16

you for more time because I, we've got to share what you're

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thinking about. When you say that statement when you say D

Unknown: 00:05:24

doesn't have five years. Tell us more. What are you talking about

Unknown: 00:05:28

there? What do you mean?

Unknown: 00:05:31

What I mean is that d AI happens within a broader cultural

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context.

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And the very legitimacy of the EI and what it stands for, is,

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in fact, under attack,

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the work of dei really follows and mirrors the work that we do

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in the broader society, around democracy and inclusion.

Unknown: 00:06:05

We don't have another five years to sit around in the United

Unknown: 00:06:11

States in particular, and just see what happens in terms of

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democracy.

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There is an eroding that's taking place at the very

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infrastructures. And part of the danger here in us talking about

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language, is that there is such a big move out right now, to do

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misinformation, disinformation, to rewrite history, to not allow

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the facts and the truth to come out whether it's in the banning

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of the books or what it is that we're allowed to say, in in

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schools, the wanting to erase race, as an issue that can even

Unknown: 00:07:04

be discussed, let alone defined or measured.

Unknown: 00:07:09

I could go on and on. But the culmination of these factors, is

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leading to such a situation where the legitimacy of doing

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this kind of work is very fragile right now.

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And what do we have to do to and who do we need to be? I know

Unknown: 00:07:40

that's a big part of your work, is who do we need to be? And

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what do we need to do to manage through this fragility, and come

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through to help people see that this work benefits them to the

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ones who may be hesitant about it or trying to steer focus and

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investment away from embedding dei in organizations?

Unknown: 00:08:06

Well,

Unknown: 00:08:08

I think that there's a step that has to happen before that.

Unknown: 00:08:14

And the step that I think that has to happen before that is

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that there needs to be

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a real, honest, honest conversation within the d i

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communities itself.

Unknown: 00:08:31

I keep saying that there are these parallels, because there

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are, the DEI doesn't just spring out of nowhere. It is a reaction

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and a response to what's happening in the broader

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society. Our corporations or companies are a microcosm of the

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whole. And what we're attempting to do in our businesses, is to

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do things a little bit differently than how they're

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being done in the broader society so that we can be more

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inclusive so that we can be competitive, so that we can, in

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fact, have work environments where everybody can flourish.

Unknown: 00:09:13

There is a way in which we want to tell our stories, merely

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within the context of the corporate environment

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without locating ourselves within the context of a broader

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societal environment.

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And taking a look at what's going on in that broader

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societal environment.

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How are those issues playing out in our corporate environments?

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And what's our contribution to it? Not just what is our

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contribution to

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making things better. But how Wait, how may we inadvertently

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been doing things that are at cross purposes? When we talk

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about language, this is no different than political

Unknown: 00:10:16

polling. Where, if you're trying to sell a message, you have to

Unknown: 00:10:22

stop for a moment and ask, what message? Are people hearing from

Unknown: 00:10:29

you? Not just, what do you think you're saying? What is it that

Unknown: 00:10:36

they are hearing?

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And? And are we picking the issues that really matter to

Unknown: 00:10:46

them? You know, are we languaging it in the ways that

Unknown: 00:10:51

they can understand and perhaps buy in and, and support us?

Unknown: 00:10:58

And I'm saying this very firmly, because I find in the DEI field,

Unknown: 00:11:05

we're operating almost like, we're right.

Unknown: 00:11:09

We're right, we have the right message, we know what we're

Unknown: 00:11:13

doing. There's just something wrong with all of them that they

Unknown: 00:11:17

don't get it.

Unknown: 00:11:20

And what do I need to do to help them see the light and see

Unknown: 00:11:27

through my eyes.

Unknown: 00:11:32

But a good communicator

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is going to learn how to see through the eyes of the ones

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that they're talking to.

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They're going to be taking that into consideration, and looking

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to see where is there the common ground? Where might we have

Unknown: 00:11:54

divergent opinions,

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but paying particular attention to ways in which we may be at

Unknown: 00:12:04

cross purposes with ourselves? And just as in the social

Unknown: 00:12:09

political environment, those cracks, those weaknesses get

Unknown: 00:12:14

exploited?

Unknown: 00:12:18

So for those who have the agenda of eradicating,

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undermining, or at least

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neutralizing

Unknown: 00:12:33

the work of Dei, because it serves their larger social

Unknown: 00:12:39

political agendas. Okay.

Unknown: 00:12:43

The pushback is not just about the company, pushback is a

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reflection of what's happening in the broader society. Just

Unknown: 00:12:53

like the advocacy isn't just about the company, the advocacy

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is about what's happening in the broader society.

Unknown: 00:13:02

And if we don't kind of wake up and smell the coffee,

Unknown: 00:13:08

and locate ourselves within this larger context,

Unknown: 00:13:14

I'm really concerned that we're going to look up in a few years

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and find that the fundings Not there.

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Not only is the funding not going to be there, but the

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environment would have flipped so that we won't even be allowed

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to have the conversations anymore.

Unknown: 00:13:40

And that's all because D I didn't work.

Unknown: 00:13:46

So they didn't feel the need to continue with the investment.

Unknown: 00:13:51

Not because it didn't work necessarily.

Unknown: 00:13:55

You know, that's like saying

Unknown: 00:14:00

the voter registration laws or the voting stuff didn't work.

Unknown: 00:14:04

No, it worked. It worked well.

Unknown: 00:14:08

We did not have a stolen election. In fact, the last

Unknown: 00:14:10

presidential election was the safest that we've ever had.

Unknown: 00:14:15

But just because you're doing well, doesn't mean you're going

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to be supported.

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Just because you're doing well doesn't mean you're going to be

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liked.

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If you're doing well flies in the face of a broader agenda

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that actually doesn't want you to be successful.

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And I feel like we're not

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coming to grips with that.

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That there's this assumption that any kind of pushback is

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just out of ignorance,

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as opposed to strict

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eject dismantling

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How can communicators step up?

Unknown: 00:15:12

In this space? I look at the experiment that I did with Chad

Unknown: 00:15:20

GPT, where I just basically typed in, right a company

Unknown: 00:15:24

diversity statement, and in less than 30 seconds, it spit out a

Unknown: 00:15:29

diverse commitment statement, a diversity statement that I could

Unknown: 00:15:32

apply to any company, because Chachi Beatty just pulls from

Unknown: 00:15:36

what's out there. So what's out there is what I see in the

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results in that search. It says Insert company name in the chat

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GBT

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version in less than 30 seconds.

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putting together something that I see a lot of companies have

Unknown: 00:15:55

spent, you know, many rewrites and many months in order to get

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approved. And it's not meaningful in any way, shape or

Unknown: 00:16:02

form. There's not a and we touched on this. And the first

Unknown: 00:16:05

time that we talked where there isn't a compelling vision, there

Unknown: 00:16:09

isn't a story of, of Dei, that's been very well articulated. So

Unknown: 00:16:15

many of us are kind of rudderless. And why we are doing

Unknown: 00:16:19

d i and it's the communicators that can really tell that story

Unknown: 00:16:24

in a compelling way. And in a specific way, that shift from

Unknown: 00:16:28

vague to specificity is something I work with, with

Unknown: 00:16:33

clients all the time because they don't see it. So many

Unknown: 00:16:36

communicators, the vast majority, I can't remember the

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statistics lately, I know I've seen them as high as 83% of the

Unknown: 00:16:43

roles of communications within organizations are taken by

Unknown: 00:16:47

people who look like me. And we don't necessarily understand

Unknown: 00:16:50

what the eye is, we don't actually know what that work is.

Unknown: 00:16:54

There's there's a great education, ramp and learning

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curve for us to actually know what that work is, in order for

Unknown: 00:17:02

us to go, Oh, now I get it, or at least I get it better than I

Unknown: 00:17:07

did yesterday, and two weeks before that, and three years

Unknown: 00:17:10

ago. So now the way I'm showing up in how I'm telling the story

Unknown: 00:17:16

and wanting to revamp and seeing that the commitment statement is

Unknown: 00:17:19

too vague. It's a list of activities. It's like camp, if

Unknown: 00:17:24

you if you read, if you read like a diversity report by most

Unknown: 00:17:28

companies, it's a list of activities that we want merit

Unknown: 00:17:31

badges for, rather than meaningful impact, to shift the

Unknown: 00:17:38

organization in a meaningful way where it benefits everybody. So

Unknown: 00:17:45

this storytelling, the language that we use the picture that we

Unknown: 00:17:50

can create the visit that compelling vision, but also

Unknown: 00:17:54

reporting on what we do what a communicators need to shift, and

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truly understand in our power of that language and storytelling

Unknown: 00:18:07

in order to step up in this work, and not end up.

Unknown: 00:18:12

Like you have warned us that we can because of this strategic

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dismantling that's going on in the larger societal realm

Unknown: 00:18:28

there's a saying there's a reason why God gave us two ears

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and only one mouth.

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Because we're supposed to listen

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twice as much as we speak.

Unknown: 00:18:44

The

Unknown: 00:18:47

the

Unknown: 00:18:50

word I'm looking for.

Unknown: 00:18:53

The encouragement that I'm saying here

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is not so much that we haven't been saying enough in the eye.

Unknown: 00:19:06

We haven't been listening

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enough in Dei.

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We have to be listening

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is the point that I'm making,

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that

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there's a tendency to want to write off

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those who are not in agreement or those who are not in

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alignment,

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to marginalize them in the same way that dei people are there to

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stop other people from being marginalized. So we're just kind

Unknown: 00:19:49

of playing tic for tat, in whose turn it is to be marginalize is

Unknown: 00:19:56

what I'm saying

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and

Unknown: 00:20:00

The D I work is not going to be successful unless you are in

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partnership,

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like real partnership.

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Otherwise, it's not going to work.

Unknown: 00:20:18

And

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the uplifting of the marginalized populations

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should be a means to an ends, and not an end in and of itself.

Unknown: 00:20:35

And I think too often we have positioned dei as though that is

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the end, like uplift these people

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give them some opportunity, the end, like we've, we've, we've

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done our work.

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But the uplifting

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is for the purpose of us all being together, and all being

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included, which involves every one.

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And I'm not so sure that the vision of all D I really

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includes every one,

Unknown: 00:21:20

we have gotten to the point, unfortunately, where the word

Unknown: 00:21:25

diversity, as a communicator quite often becomes a code word

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for non white.

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Or, you know, anything other than white male, or anything

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other than straight white male.

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So this pushback, particularly when you are in an environment,

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where

Unknown: 00:22:03

white, straight men are not perceiving themselves as

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advantage,

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not perceiving themselves as privileged. Whether it's true or

Unknown: 00:22:17

not. But I'm saying is that the self perception is not that. And

Unknown: 00:22:25

there's no real conversations going on anywhere

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about that.

Unknown: 00:22:34

So we're doing this.

Unknown: 00:22:38

We're doing this, I believe, in our last conversation, I gave

Unknown: 00:22:44

the analogy of a family that is expanding.

Unknown: 00:22:51

And if you have

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a new baby that comes into the family, of course, the new baby

Unknown: 00:22:57

is going to get a lot of attention. But the 12 year old,

Unknown: 00:23:01

the 13 year old is going to be wondering, well, what about me.

Unknown: 00:23:05

And then when they get 16 and 17, it's not that they don't

Unknown: 00:23:08

love their five year old brother or sister or or care about them.

Unknown: 00:23:14

But in their minds, they're feeling as though somehow or

Unknown: 00:23:19

another, the parents attention has gotten siphoned off, and

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that the younger brother or sister is favored.

Unknown: 00:23:31

So a lot of what I see labeled sometimes as racism.

Unknown: 00:23:38

I'm not saying that there isn't some of that in there.

Unknown: 00:23:43

But it could equally be described as sibling rivalry.

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It's sibling rivalry,

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kind of this, who's favored?

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Who's valued?

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And has that been our message

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in fact that

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everybody's valued.

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And that no one is actually more important than another.

Unknown: 00:24:24

This is why I say that.

Unknown: 00:24:28

I think there have to be these conversations within ourselves.

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About what are we doing?

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You know, what is our message?

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What do people think that we stand for?

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And have we created a vision

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that's big enough

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to involve everyone

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It's often a lack of imagination.

Unknown: 00:25:05

And I was, you know that I'm in the process of moving my dad out

Unknown: 00:25:10

of state, he, he's been in the same place for 34 years, and

Unknown: 00:25:14

it's it his age, almost 77, this is a big huge change. So

Unknown: 00:25:20

we were driving 14 hours, and I was watching a lot of traffic

Unknown: 00:25:26

coming on and off the freeway. And I had this thought of these

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two cars that we were making room for the car that was coming

Unknown: 00:25:35

on. And then there was somebody, another car, who didn't lose

Unknown: 00:25:39

their space, I didn't lose my space, I needed to move slow

Unknown: 00:25:42

down a little bit, in order to safely have the person come in

Unknown: 00:25:45

front of me, the other person, you know, stayed at their speed,

Unknown: 00:25:49

there was just room. So when you have an abundance mindset, di is

Unknown: 00:25:54

possible. Right? And then whatever we can systematize we

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can put in structures and institutions and stuff, it

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becomes probable.

Unknown: 00:26:05

But first, we start with the possible it's possible. And I

Unknown: 00:26:11

know you're a big, you know, one of your one of the things that

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you really teach is about this, the power of possibility. And

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being that place of possibility. In our, in our conversation

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today as communicators really being that place of possibility

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for us to make room for anybody who's entering and exiting. But

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everybody still has their role. Everybody is still there, maybe

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we have to adjust our speed a little bit. However, we're all

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there in order to get to where we want to go. And there's an

Unknown: 00:26:47

alignment there. You know, there's a story that you've told

Unknown: 00:26:50

me

Unknown: 00:26:52

a few times when you were doing a corporate diversity training

Unknown: 00:26:57

at a very large company. And you got into this discussion, I

Unknown: 00:27:03

believe you were the trainer, and there's someone in the

Unknown: 00:27:05

audience that was kind of challenging you around the

Unknown: 00:27:07

marriage equality, conversation. Do you remember the story? Okay,

Unknown: 00:27:12

can you can you recite the story for folks, and it's that that

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ending, aha, and how you

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named the interaction, and the motivation of the audience

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member, that you kind of, you put a name to it. And I think

Unknown: 00:27:33

it's incredibly profound and something that I think

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communicators would benefit from an understanding that hesitancy,

Unknown: 00:27:39

even the pushback, etc, that they may be experiencing

Unknown: 00:27:42

specifically from leaders?

Unknown: 00:27:47

Well, it's interesting that you should ask me about this. Um, I

Unknown: 00:27:52

just included it in one of my podcasts. Within the last month

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or two.

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I did the podcast with Dr. Anita Sanchez, one of my colleagues,

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and it was kind of a trip down memory lane asking her did she

Unknown: 00:28:08

remember that moment? Because I was doing this work under her

Unknown: 00:28:12

banner, okay, or with her husband. Their firm is called

Unknown: 00:28:18

scientists tennis. And I was one of their associates for many,

Unknown: 00:28:23

many years. So we're at this large tech company, this

Unknown: 00:28:27

particular event happened in Oregon, if I'm not mistaken,

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everybody know, it was Colorado, in particular, because this was

Unknown: 00:28:38

when Colorado was the first state to really get knee deep

Unknown: 00:28:42

into the marriage equality issue.

Unknown: 00:28:47

This particular training was with only management. So they

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were coming in from all over the place. At the time, my role

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within the training was to discuss issues in regards to the

Unknown: 00:29:03

LGBTQ community. As far as employment goes, there was the

Unknown: 00:29:09

company was coming out supportive of domestic

Unknown: 00:29:13

partnerships, and they were coming out to be supportive of

Unknown: 00:29:19

whatever it was that needed to happen within the broader

Unknown: 00:29:22

society to have the relationships between same sex

Unknown: 00:29:26

couples legitimize this was making one particular manager

Unknown: 00:29:31

very, very uncomfortable, very uncomfortable. And I noticed I

Unknown: 00:29:36

pick pardon, while he was a straight white male, middle

Unknown: 00:29:40

aged.

Unknown: 00:29:42

Yes

Unknown: 00:29:45

professed

Unknown: 00:29:47

Christian,

Unknown: 00:29:50

devout Christian by his own, you know, definition, and his

Unknown: 00:29:57

frustration was frustrating me

Unknown: 00:30:00

So I knew enough to just stop for a moment. And I did when I'm

Unknown: 00:30:07

suggesting I listened. So I just stepped back.

Unknown: 00:30:12

And I gave him the floor.

Unknown: 00:30:15

And I said,

Unknown: 00:30:19

what you just said was, you don't have anything personally

Unknown: 00:30:24

against gay people, you would never do anything to hurt or

Unknown: 00:30:29

harm, discriminate against them, hold them back, give them lesser

Unknown: 00:30:34

assignments on your teams, or anything like that.

Unknown: 00:30:39

You believe that people should be able to be in whatever kind

Unknown: 00:30:44

of relationships that they want to be in. But you cannot get

Unknown: 00:30:50

behind the company

Unknown: 00:30:54

endorsing domestic partnerships, because you feel that isn't an

Unknown: 00:30:59

encroachment upon your understanding of marriage, which

Unknown: 00:31:03

is in the domain of a male and a female, according to your

Unknown: 00:31:08

religious beliefs, that this policy goes up against your

Unknown: 00:31:13

religious belief. For that reason, you'll cooperate with it

Unknown: 00:31:18

if you have to, but you can't really wholeheartedly support

Unknown: 00:31:22

it. And because you don't support it, you don't want to be

Unknown: 00:31:26

considered anti diversity.

Unknown: 00:31:31

And he just,

Unknown: 00:31:33

it was like, somebody took the, the weight right off his

Unknown: 00:31:38

shoulders, and he to sit? Yes, yes, that's what I'm saying. And

Unknown: 00:31:44

I said, you know, I get it.

Unknown: 00:31:47

At this particular point in time, we were just in shock. And

Unknown: 00:31:51

all in Iraq, wasn't too long after 911.

Unknown: 00:31:57

Supposedly, they had these weapons of mass destruction that

Unknown: 00:32:00

nobody could find, right?

Unknown: 00:32:04

So I said to him, I get it.

Unknown: 00:32:08

I said, because there is no amount of training in the world,

Unknown: 00:32:13

to convince me that shot in all is okay. I am not against the

Unknown: 00:32:20

military. I don't want to do anything that's gonna hurt the

Unknown: 00:32:23

military. I'm fine with the military. But just because I

Unknown: 00:32:29

don't support all of my nation's foreign policy. And I don't want

Unknown: 00:32:34

to be considered unpatriotic, for doing that.

Unknown: 00:32:40

And at this moment,

Unknown: 00:32:44

we both were standing. And we just looked at each other, and

Unknown: 00:32:50

we migrated to each other, we hug and we both actually started

Unknown: 00:32:56

to cry.

Unknown: 00:32:58

Amazing, something broke, he didn't change his mind. I didn't

Unknown: 00:33:03

change my mind. But the conflict stopped, because the conflicts

Unknown: 00:33:08

are never about differences. It's the polarization around the

Unknown: 00:33:12

differences.

Unknown: 00:33:15

And when we depolarize,

Unknown: 00:33:18

we could step into that vision that we had of what the company

Unknown: 00:33:23

could be.

Unknown: 00:33:26

You saw him, you heard him, you valued him. And you found that

Unknown: 00:33:32

connection with him.

Unknown: 00:33:35

And it's that listening, like you were talking about the two

Unknown: 00:33:38

years, one mouth, that's the main thing that I'm trying to

Unknown: 00:33:44

say is that everybody has to be valued. And even just in your

Unknown: 00:33:52

analogy that you were making about on the road, and can we

Unknown: 00:33:56

make room for the new people who were like coming in?

Unknown: 00:34:01

But can we also make sure that the ones that were already on

Unknown: 00:34:04

the road

Unknown: 00:34:07

are also feeling seen and valued, like their journeys are

Unknown: 00:34:12

just as important?

Unknown: 00:34:21

As want everyone to take a breath for a second year,

Unknown: 00:34:24

because this is really big.

Unknown: 00:34:28

This is something that's going to take some time to process. I

Unknown: 00:34:31

mean, every time I heard you hear you share that example, I

Unknown: 00:34:34

met another level of process with that. Is it that example or

Unknown: 00:34:40

a different example of a time where you talk about making

Unknown: 00:34:44

space for fighting for their right to believe what they

Unknown: 00:34:49

believe in? Oh, yeah.

Unknown: 00:34:53

You're speaking of a debate that I was in at the

Unknown: 00:35:00

San Francisco club. This was also around the issue of

Unknown: 00:35:03

marriage equality.

Unknown: 00:35:06

This particular guy was a Muslim guy with seven children, a

Unknown: 00:35:11

Muslim leader. And let me be more specific, we were clergy.

Unknown: 00:35:16

And he was very, very anti.

Unknown: 00:35:20

Same sex marriage, marriage equality.

Unknown: 00:35:23

So at the end of the whole thing I said to him, you know, I think

Unknown: 00:35:30

you're wrong, and you think I'm wrong. I said, this is clear. I

Unknown: 00:35:36

said, but that's not the real difference between us. Our

Unknown: 00:35:39

stance on marriage equality, that's not our difference. I

Unknown: 00:35:42

said, Let me tell you what our real difference is. I said, our

Unknown: 00:35:45

real difference is that I will forever fight

Unknown: 00:35:51

for your right to say I'm wrong.

Unknown: 00:35:55

You just want to silence me.

Unknown: 00:36:04

That's what I told him.

Unknown: 00:36:07

I think this is another podcast episode, talking about this. And

Unknown: 00:36:11

you were talking, you're alluding into it earlier of just

Unknown: 00:36:13

kind of this

Unknown: 00:36:15

power dynamic, the power struggle, you are putting your

Unknown: 00:36:18

fists together and having them pushed against each other. And

Unknown: 00:36:22

that it's it's a, it's a, it's a shifting of the power struggle

Unknown: 00:36:27

and the power dynamic, which we see played out in corporations

Unknown: 00:36:31

at all levels. And I think what those two examples that you just

Unknown: 00:36:35

shared, are things that us as communicators really need to

Unknown: 00:36:39

take some time to really process and see where we are. Not making

Unknown: 00:36:46

space, not valuing

Unknown: 00:36:51

where we just want to power forward, rather than bring

Unknown: 00:36:54

people with us is not part of the definition of leadership is

Unknown: 00:36:58

like, you know, turning around and looking to see if anyone's

Unknown: 00:37:01

behind you. Anything you want to speak to that and your closing

Unknown: 00:37:04

thoughts.

Unknown: 00:37:08

I have a series out called Letters from the infinite.

Unknown: 00:37:11

They're just these divine downloads that I get in the form

Unknown: 00:37:15

of letters it's published by sounds true. And there is a

Unknown: 00:37:20

definition that's given of a religion. And what religious

Unknown: 00:37:29

edicts if there are any, like what those should be principles,

Unknown: 00:37:34

and I think it applies to Dei.

Unknown: 00:37:38

It said that any kind of religious laws should should be

Unknown: 00:37:43

like traffic laws.

Unknown: 00:37:47

They don't tell you where to go.

Unknown: 00:37:51

They just ensure that everybody can arrive safely at their own

Unknown: 00:37:57

destination without interfering with each other's journeys. Oh,

Unknown: 00:38:02

damn, this is good, keep going.

Unknown: 00:38:06

I'll say it again.

Unknown: 00:38:10

That I believe that dei should be like this definition that was

Unknown: 00:38:15

given about religious laws, said religious laws should be like

Unknown: 00:38:21

traffic laws.

Unknown: 00:38:24

And this is what I think di needs to be. It doesn't tell you

Unknown: 00:38:28

where to go.

Unknown: 00:38:31

It just ensures that each and every person can arrived safely

Unknown: 00:38:38

at their destination

Unknown: 00:38:41

without interfering with each other's journeys

Unknown: 00:38:54

take a breath with me listeners.

Unknown: 00:39:01

People are going to have some feelings about we just what we

Unknown: 00:39:04

just talked about. And I encourage folks to process them

Unknown: 00:39:08

to

Unknown: 00:39:10

you know, find support. You've got rev DS podcasts that you can

Unknown: 00:39:16

listen to. And her books. Tell us about those Rev.

Unknown: 00:39:22

Yes, so my podcast you can find on any podcast channel, under

Unknown: 00:39:30

REV D. Now I have a rev D now channel that has three podcasts

Unknown: 00:39:34

shows on it.

Unknown: 00:39:36

And by books you can find online. The sacred Yes, and your

Unknown: 00:39:41

deepest intent, both in the letters from the infinite

Unknown: 00:39:45

series. And those are the kinds of books that you don't like,

Unknown: 00:39:48

right, you know, go from the beginning. It's one of those

Unknown: 00:39:51

that you just kind of open up and just just see see where

Unknown: 00:39:56

you're led to see what needs to be spoken to you in

Unknown: 00:40:00

In that moment, for sure, and I do coaching,

Unknown: 00:40:03

you know, and as well as you know, continual continual,

Unknown: 00:40:09

you know, consulting, as well as ongoing training, because, you

Unknown: 00:40:13

know, when one time training doesn't work, so you have to do

Unknown: 00:40:17

it on a regular basis, but also embedding it within our

Unknown: 00:40:20

communication policies and processes, our editorial

Unknown: 00:40:24

workflow, all of the things, one of the other sayings that rev D

Unknown: 00:40:29

has is that,

Unknown: 00:40:31

and I've, you know, and to put communicators spin on it, it's

Unknown: 00:40:36

that, you know, whatever you want is, the result has to be a

Unknown: 00:40:39

part of the process, which I believe you shared in our first

Unknown: 00:40:42

podcast. So if you want di communications as a result, and

Unknown: 00:40:45

di Communications has to be a part of the process doesn't

Unknown: 00:40:49

magically happen without it intentionally built into our

Unknown: 00:40:52

systems and processes. So we're gonna keep talking, we're gonna

Unknown: 00:40:56

have you back as our our correspondent, to, to di

Unknown: 00:41:00

communications, thank you for your generous sharing, please

Unknown: 00:41:04

support Rev. D. And all that she does follow her, engage with

Unknown: 00:41:08

her. But don't, don't brush this away what you heard in this

Unknown: 00:41:15

podcast episode, specifically, or any, any, any, anytime that

Unknown: 00:41:19

you hear rev D speak, let it sit with you, you get mad at it,

Unknown: 00:41:23

punch in the air about it. Because another one of her

Unknown: 00:41:27

sayings is, maybe we'll talk about this in a future podcast,

Unknown: 00:41:31

but the whole idea of feel DL, he'll

Unknown: 00:41:38

and famous musicians have even put that on a slide while they

Unknown: 00:41:42

are on concert and in tour. And so this is something and Oprah,

Unknown: 00:41:47

you know, talked about it because of a young love and that

Unknown: 00:41:51

quoting you, during one of her major shows that she's done. So

Unknown: 00:41:56

it's out there in the world, but you need to know that it's rev D

Unknown: 00:42:00

that talks about these things. And they're profound. And just

Unknown: 00:42:05

imagine I've been mentoring, I've been mentoring under her

Unknown: 00:42:09

for 20 years. We're recording this in April and 2023. And

Unknown: 00:42:12

we've known each other for 19 years, it was April 2004. When

Unknown: 00:42:15

we first met, and I knew what I was getting into then, and I've

Unknown: 00:42:19

changed my life, you've changed 1000s of lives. And then because

Unknown: 00:42:23

of that ripple effect, it has improved millions of lives. So

Unknown: 00:42:27

thank you for your work and your legacy.

Unknown: 00:42:34

Well, thank you, Kim. And

Unknown: 00:42:37

you know, I'm not saying I have the answer. I'm not saying that

Unknown: 00:42:40

any one person has the answer. What I'm saying is that we need

Unknown: 00:42:45

to engage in the conversation.

Unknown: 00:42:50

I love the way that Lynne twist puts it. Another one of my

Unknown: 00:42:53

colleagues who also has endorsed my work. She says the problem is

Unknown: 00:42:58

not our on answered questions. It's our unquestioned answers.

Unknown: 00:43:12

So much that I have to process through just this conversation.

Unknown: 00:43:19

On ongoing Oh, Rev. D, thank you so much. Thank you for being

Unknown: 00:43:23

back and for gifting your knowledge. We have a transcribed

Unknown: 00:43:28

dinner conversation that I turned into an article, and we

Unknown: 00:43:32

will put it in the show notes. It's talking about understanding

Unknown: 00:43:35

the DEI backlash. And so y'all need to go a little deeper on

Unknown: 00:43:39

this work. So we're going to include a link to that article

Unknown: 00:43:43

for you to learn more. And I have done trainings and speaking

Unknown: 00:43:48

engagements based on that article, people are like, talk

Unknown: 00:43:52

to us more about what that looks like and feels like and I bring

Unknown: 00:43:55

that article and reference it throughout and turn it into a

Unknown: 00:44:00

real you know, in real life kind of experience for people to work

Unknown: 00:44:04

through because we have to have these conversations. We have to

Unknown: 00:44:08

talk about this. The fastest way is through, not under not

Unknown: 00:44:12

running away, not blocking

Unknown: 00:44:15

the facet and it's only forward from here. Thank you rev D for

Unknown: 00:44:19

leading this work and for the last several decades of leading

Unknown: 00:44:23

this work and all the different ways that you have my pleasure.